In the aftermath of this past week’s devastating attacks in Mumbai, media outlets are focusing their coverage on what the recent violence [that killed 183 people and wounded 273] will mean for India-Pakistan relations. On CNN’s Situation Room today, correspondent Nic Robertson reported that while 11 of the attackers were killed, “the biggest lead in the investigation is the fact that the police have one of the attackers alive and they’re questioning him.” Robertson told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer,
They say that he is a Pakistani. Our sister network CNN IBN has been talking to intelligence sources that they have. They’re being told that this Pakistani claims that he was trained in Pakistan by a terror group in Pakistan, that he’d come to India to perpetrate this attack, that they have been told to study Google Earth maps so they would know their way around Mumbai when they arrived here. They arrived, some of the attackers arrived by boat. It’s still not clear had that boat come directly from Pakistan or had they spent some time out at sea.
The AFP identified the attacker as Ajmal Amir Kamal, and cited U.S. counterterrorism officials who said “some evidence was emerging that Lashkar-e-Toiba could have been behind the Mumbai attacks.” The LeT, as was reported earlier, have denied responsibility for the attacks. The group, which has been fighting in Indian-administered Kashmir, was behind the 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament that had threatened Indian-Pakistani ties.
Since the blast, relations between the two neighboring states are once again at the brink, and New Delhi has asserted that “elements in Pakistan” are behind the Mumbai attacks. Sources reportedly told CNN’s sister network in India, CNN-IBN, “The Indian government is considering suspending the five-year-old cease-fire with Pakistan and perhaps even ending the dialogue process with the country.” This weekend, several Pakistani figures urged India not to “overreact.” Husain Haqqani, Pakistan’s ambassador to the U.S., told CNN today,
Terrorists operate in so many countries these days. There have been terrorists that have been found in the United States training, they have been caught. That doesn’t mean that the United States is to blame. The important thing is Pakistan is a victim of terrorism. India is a victim of terrorism. We need to put the burden of history behind us, work together and make sure both of us get rid of this terrorist menace that afflicts both of our countries.
President Asif Ali Zardari asserted on Saturday that Pakistan’s government would take immediate and strong measures if proof of Pakistani involvement was provided. The Daily Times quoted him stating, “Let me assure you that if any evidence points to any individual or any group in this part of the world, I shall take the strictest of action in the light of this evidence and in front of the world.” Zardari also urged India not to “over-react,” arguing that “reducing the Mumbai attacks to an India-Pakistan problem was counter-productive.”
Today, Dawn reported that “more than 1,000” people marched in Lahore to urge both India and Pakistan to refrain from hostilities following the Mumbai attacks. According to the news agency, participants of the rally, organized by the Pakistan Awami Tehreek (Pakistan People’s Movement), carried Pakistani flags and chanted slogans like, “We want peace, not war.”
Will these tensions escalate? Hopefully not, but these recent developments have highlighted just how “good” Pakistan’s relations really have been with India, [particularly since representatives from both states had just pledged to cooperate on counterterrorism efforts the morning of the attacks]. The accusations and tensions also highlight the domestic issues persisting within both countries. According to Dawn, in Pakistan, reactions by the country’s top officials “are indicative of a growing gulf between the government and the security establishment” on how to handle the issue. Although political officials in Pakistan have attempted to reason with India’s accusations, leaning towards dialogue and promising they will help curb terrorism in both nations, Dawn pointed out that Pakistan’s military brass has reacted differently. The news agency cited a senior military official who “squarely accused India of indulging in the blame game without even investigating the matter and said that at this stage Pakistan’s security establishment was applying methods to avoid what he called an unwanted war,” [this may include shifting Pakistani troops from the Afghanistan border to the Indian border]. However, “some political and security analysts described the differences in approach and perception to the challenge as nothing unusual. According to them, the fears of Pakistan’s security establishment were because of years of suspicions about the intentions of the Indian authorities to undermine Pakistan.”
Resorting to force and resolving the current tensions through military means will not help either nation, especially Pakistan. We already face our own domestic terrorist threat, as well as pressures from Afghanistan, the U.S. and NATO-led forces to handle the militant campaign raging in the border areas. And, although we were recently granted an IMF credit, [see previous post], our economic issues are far from over. A war with India is the last thing either country needs, particularly because it is still not yet clear who perpetrated the Mumbai attacks. Until that fact has been ascertained, officials on either side should not act preemptively or jumpstart an unnecessary war. As Mohsin Hamid wrote in a recent column for the UK’s Guardian, “[Pakistan and India's] fights against extremism cannot be separated by national borders into convenient compartments, one marked “domestic” and the other “foreign.” Just as Pakistan and Afghanistan must cooperate if they are to solve the problems of violent extremism, so must Pakistan and India. [Image from the AFP]

[...] while 11 of the attackers were killed, “the biggest lead in […] Read more at: CHUP! – Changing Up Pakistan ajmal, amir kamal, cease fire, cnn, cnn ibn, counterterrorism officials, earth maps, google, [...]
@ I am not shocked or surprised by CNN ‘s
Wolf ! Wolf ! Wolf ! crys by Blitzer, its always the
same music, anti-Muslims. It turned efficient atleast,
for 900 PPP’s ( Secular Pro-Indian movement branch )
jiyalas to come out and force others or pay some to
perform their ” pacifist’s ” theatrical peace “pigeons”
drama, ” Akhand Shanti “.
Indian farce, the so called Pakistani who’s name is not
even properly fabricated, had Hinduvtas red-Orange band
around his wrist instead of the Holy book, strange ! I
wonder if they have converted to Hinduvta’s Lashkar-e-sufi
initiated by Salman Taseer and his colleague Sufi Hussain
Haqqani of Islamabad’s Khawaja Khizr Shrine.
In short, have we forgotten, the involvement of Indian
Army, police, and RSS Nazis in Samjhota Express, Dehli’s
Gujarat’s and Ayudhia’s massacres of muslims ??
The fake, so called fixed ” terrorist attack in Mumbai ” has
turned against their own perpetrators who are no one else
than B A T I L A N S.
Both Indians and Pakistanis say that !
( not the 900 jiyalas red pyjamas “pacifists” junky
Taseerists).
Indians are better liars than Pakistanis.
R@FA@Y,
Its not that we have forgotten about the massacres, its just that we believe that we need to move beyond the atrocities of the past and become better people.
By raising fingers at each other, is not the way forward. Instead of a us versus them feeling i.e. Pakistani vs Indians, it is time to face that we are all victims of terrorism and we need to accept that, only then can we resolve and move forward.
Bilquis. AM
We also need to look inward – there were failures within India’s intelligence, just as there have been mixed signals from the different parts of our establishment. The military response to this issue versus the government’s response are different enough that they seem problematic to me – will there be a day that we respond as one Pakistan, versus responding as the Pakistani military, the intelligence, and the central govt? The issue over sending Gen. Pasha to India and then deciding to send a lower level official further emphasizes these internal issues.
Damn right Pakistan needs to change. And quickly, for its own good.
good summary.
I think US and most western governments need to rethink of Pakistan’s role on terror. Its not a friend for sure, rather Pak seem to be playing a double game with US/UK. Pakistan is the safest & strongest camp for all sorts of terrorist groups in world. They are the terrorist producers, like India produces IT professionals and China is in Manufacturing. I sometimes tend to believe that Western Media is forcing a polished face of Pak to their citizens, and force us to believe that Pak is a friend not enemy.
A weak government, with a security apparatus out of control. A security apparatus which is a law onto itself, holding the reigns to the political establishment.
What has happened is war, with a strike at the soft underbelly. This is what a weak organization which has lost sight of its moral scruples will invariably do. Well, one can always argue, when did ISI ever have morals and scruples. All it wants is to survive and its survival may have been at stake. It had no option but to strike.
On the other hand, a democratic government, with its openness, will always be vulnerable to such attacks. A democratic government needs to take all its people together, which in turn can be a weakness which can be exploited. And it was exploited to the hilt.
Hey, we’re a democracy too now. Not a perfect democracy but the fact that Gilani called all the political leaders to get them onboard does seem the democratic way to go about this.
Both countries are faced with problems and let me tell you, compared to India, Pakistan’s problems are huge. Garanguatan.
We don’t really need to squabble among each other. We don’t need to tell ourselves about the problem, workign towards a solution would be a better idea.
Never before in its history of facing some of the bloodiest terrorist attacks has India felt so collectively crippled as it does today. It demands action, not just fancy words and empty promises from politicians.
A lot of this is our mistake, why do we elect such leaders who go upto the extent of destroying humanity to gain power. It’s high time we as individuals take up the responsibilty our nation and our fellow human beings. The question is how ?
Well heres how.. http://goindia360.blogspot.com/2008/12/all-indians-need-to-act-now.html
While the possibility of Pakistani involvement is not unlikely- it would be overly simplistic and rash of Indian govt to blame the entire attack on those across the border.
@Bilquis,
you are trying to clap with one hand !! and it seems
nobody remarks that !
@ Rohani,
try to elaborate why only Pakistan has to change ??
@ vic,
get yourself some treatment, The world’s biggest
Terrorists, who produce terror with Arms & money are
USA, Israel, India, UK, EU, I call them Batilans
as they are backing & helping takfiris Talibans in their
ranks.
You can not continue with your crap and nonsense
propogated by CNN, BBC or Indian Raw aided by Mosad,
People don’t believe in the contents of your naive
and stupid old fashioned Uncle Sam propaganda anymore.
your pitch is as old as the last survivor of Titanic.
@Dr. Kothari,
” when did ISI ever has morals and scruples ” oh la la la
you still think that other agencies like CIA, Mosad, Raw,
Khad, MI6, DST are ” pure ” Hare Raama Hare Krishna
or Jesus Christ Charity Clubs ? or salvation army ?
Well of course ISI is comparatively, weaker than others,
I wonder who’s account would you credit with such an
enormous success of Mumbai blasts ?? because, by God,
how well planed ? ( just like Marriott in Islamabad ) !
even Israelis religious extremists were recruited from
Israel.
@ rishil,
no, you are mistaken, in 2002 in Gujarat 2900 muslims
were burned alive, killed, hacked, raped disappeared,
Ayudhia, thousands of ,muslims met the same fate,
Kashmir, 100.000 Kashmiri muslims Genocided, 20.000
disappeared, 27.000 maimed, invalid for life, as their limbs
were chopped off by Indian Army Bastards, reptorted by
Amnesty International,
you think the above was never enough ” bloodiest ” ?
and India was never crippled !! !
Yes, Indeed Shame on Indians SINCE 1947 !!
shall I tell you the similiarities among Indian RAW, Army
and the Gastapo of Nazi Germany ?? perhaps next time !
Rafay, you need to take a deep breath (through your nose). Keep your mouth shut.
There is no reason for you to take potshots at all and sundry. Everyone has a right to their opinion. And everyone also has the right to disagree. But please don’t preach about this and that when no one here is a prophet (only self-declared ones such as you).
As I said before, rather than pointing fingers and blaming everyone and their mom, all of us (indians, pakistanis) need a moment of self-reflection. And how we can better serve society by changing it.
Now please don’t go and rip on me since I wish to no longer partake in your senseless squabbles.
I would like to start with a quote by Amartya Sen, the Harvard economist and Indian-born Nobel laureate:
“It is extremely important to understand that the criminal activities of a minuscule group, even if it turns out to have home-grown elements, say nothing about Indian Muslims in general, who are an integral part of the country’s social fabric,” Amartya Sen, the Harvard economist and Indian-born Nobel laureate, wrote in an e-mail message. “Even if it turns out that the Mumbai terrorists had a base in Pakistani territory, India has to take full note of the fact that the bulk of Pakistani civil society is an ally, not an enemy, in the battle against Islamist terrorism, for they too suffer greatly from the violence of a determined minority based in their country.”
The last thing Indian govt needs to do is point fingers at Pakistan as their first response. I realize that they have substantial evidence, which points to links in Pakistan. But that doesn’t mean that Pakistani society and/or govt is responsible for this or desires terrorism. If anything the Pakistani govt and society are trying to rid themselves of daily bombings and killings. It would be best to work together instead of pointing fingers at each other. Especially at this crucial moment.
I guess ‘Rafay’ is forgetting one thing that even though Terrorist are fighting war in name of islam..every one knows that it is not..It is because of seek mind of some people. They need to be cured.
I am very much afraid that full fledge war between Ind-Pak is not at far..an We again need to devide Pak to stop this all the crap.
@ F
your Indian-born Nobel laureate, must be quite aged !
according to him India is a ” shanti Manufacturing Factory ”
always others, but let him know that India is full fledge
partner in Int. Terrorism along with Israel, UK, USA, & EU.
His ” Economystical ” analysis reveals his transcendental
highs are nothing but remote controled ” philosophy “.
ask him to come to this blog.
@YH,
all of my 5 respectable targets never listed you, !!
I think you missed the target, you took the wrong thread,
I think you have a ” sinus aigue ” problem, sort of blockage
of brains, you have lost all tastes, anyway dear, no , neither
mine were potshots, nor they are sundries, don’t catagorize
people, I had interogated some of them, they might wake up
and give me their positions vis-a-vis the facts I mentioned.
Don’t creat ” wawellas, and siyyappas ” of rights, religion,
agreements, preaching and what not ?
Its your choice of ” Hamdard Dawakhana ” fair enough !
I have noted down your method of serving the society,
all I did is try to serve myself first to understand what is
going on with us, perhaps I will be able to serve better
after knowing the truth !!
No, don’t worry, I won’t rip off any of your limbs, like Indians
doing in Kashmir. And remember, truth is always sour,
disliked, and considered as ” senseless squabbles “. And
” Sensible ” squabbles could only be ” obeying them and
shutting your mouth like you suggested.
Sorry, I have never done it.
[...] – Changing Up Pakistan follows the conversations in the international media pointing fingers at Pakistan for the terror attacks in [...]
Rafay did you even read what Amratya Sen said before you wrote your response? He doesn’t claim that India is ‘Shanti manufacturing plant’ or India is holier than thou. I understand the concept of freedom of speech but at the very least read before you type a response.
Amartya Sen is asking people to be calm and not play the blame game against Muslims in general, in light of raging emotions and frustration. We all know hate cultivates terrorism, which results in loss of innocent lives. Unfortunately you have nothing but hate against Israel, US, UK, and India, which make you a part of the problem not the solution. Hate/Terrorism whether committed by US, UK, India, Pakistan, Taliban, ISI, RAW or any other nation/group you mentioned has caused nothing but loss of innocent lives. It is time we changed our thought process cause obviously hatred has done nothing but worsen crisis. You should perhaps try to look into that.
We all need to work towards a solution and its unfortunate that knowledgeable people such as yourself are part of the problem. As all you do is propagate unnecessary hate.
Let me ask you this what do you feel is the solution to terrorism in our part of the world? Enlighten us without name calling, pointing fingers, hating on US/UK/Pakistan/Israel or any other country etc etc (you get my drift).
@ We are under heavey influence of what is been told
to us ” by ” the Batilans, the war is fabricated by
placing on one side the so called Islamic Extremists
and on the other side all the saints
US, UK, Israel, India, Takfiris in short the ” Batilans ”
we discovered gradually that these ” Islamic Extrimists *
are Financed, armed, indoctrinated, trained, Publicised,
run, lobbyed, provoked, by these very B A T I L A N S .
Just let me know where I am wrong ? please don’t
insist on apologetic sentiments, as I am not looking for
them, none of you have diagonosed the origin of such
terrorist plannings and long -term investment in the
region. I am not interesting in pampering muslims of
India or Kashmir, or Iraq, and Afghanistan .
Why the holy war is been declared against muslims ?
by naming them and catagoriszing them. point ???
I have not asked you to come with your poetry of
Humanism !
[...] Mumbai Attacks: Ramifications for Pakistan [...]
I think time has arrived where India should also sponsor terrorist in Baluchistan and wherever they are…Then they will come to know. because even though we dont do anything wrong we get blamed and These terrorist attacks on India are defended by these pakistanis…I think Enough is enough..
There is no point in talking to Pakistan and There people..Need to finish..this time round..we had 1 billion if 50% remains still we will be at 2nd most populous..
@ sutch,
you are so naive, uninformed, or you pretend !
India is already behind Baluchistan liberation Army,
Indian Govt. has apprehended its Army officers, soldiers
Indian police, political agents, who were directly involved
in Samjhota express massacres of muslims,
India is involved with MQM Karachi, ANP and PPP,
India is perpetrating Genocide of Kashmiri Muslims.
India is a terrorrist state and committed Crimes against
Humanity, in Kashmir inside India ethnic cleansing of
muslims inside India with the help of ISRAEL another
similar state.
sutch dear, you are such a saint ?
R@f@y,
Can you please elaborate what you meant by that I am clapping by one hand? I’m simply stating what I believe, I am not looking for any approval or praise from others.
“Even though we don’t do anything wrong…” Oh please, Sutch. While India’s own people right now are angry at Pakistan, many are angry at their own government for the reported intelligence failures. To say that India has not done anything wrong in terms of the Indo-Pak conflict is also ridiculous – both sides have perpetrated acts in the past 60 years that have fed the cycle of violence between both countries. I sincerely HOPE you don’t represent the current sentiment in India right now, because your exhibited lack of rationale is perturbing.
First of all we have democracy and Culture of 5000 years so we dont indulge in such acts but let me give answers from my knowledge.
One more thing media or people here never blame pakistani people as fact of matter we have more understanding of muslims and there religion as we celebrate with them. You people dont know about Hindu religion.
Let me give answers to ur points one bye one.
India is already behind Baluchistan liberation Army,
- In my knowledge they are not but they should if Pakistanis defend such terrorist acts we can aslo support Independence movement and sponsor to as If we dont save our people we dont need 300 billion dollars of foreign exchange so we certainly to that on priority.
Indian Govt. has apprehended its Army officers, soldiers
Indian police, political agents, who were directly involved
in Samjhota express massacres of muslims,
- There were Indians too so no need to blow on our side we could have done on your side.
India is involved with MQM Karachi, ANP and PPP
- We have so many parties and so many elections so we can afford to give help to at least 50 such parties.
India is perpetrating Genocide of Kashmiri Muslims.
- Just 1 week back they had elections and percentage of voting was 60% which is more than indian average so I guess they no who is behind genoside and who is not..
India is a terrorrist state
- Every body knows who is terrorist state and I dont need to give more Info. search ‘Pak and Terrorism’ you will come to know.
committed Crimes against Humanity, in Kashmir inside India ethnic cleansing of muslims inside India with the help of ISRAEL another similar state. – Even though we dont share much of the history with Kashmir neighter you so dont talk about that. Atleast kashmiri youth can take good education here instead of going to madarasa’s and they fighting for taliban ..
As from past action Pakistan has showed disrespect to value of ordinary kashmiri so stop talking.
-
I have to write more but dont have time bcoz I have one test..but will write next time..
So I guess i used to be saint to I dont want to be…
@ Bilquis a.m,
I meant, you need to have two hands to clap,
similarly, you need to have two ” willing ” neighbours
to have minimum peace.
Is India a willing neighbour ?
@ Sutch,
1. Indian Democracy is held hostage by Brahmanism, the
dominating “fake democrates”. You remove the Brahmans
the whole ” Chateau de cartes ” will collapse and
disappear,
2. your, so called, culture of 5000 years had been removed
from your map, dear, since 1947, that culture belongs to
Pakistan, you know the new address of your culture ?
I am sure when your Geography teacher tells you about
Indus valley, Ghandhara, Texila, Mohan jo dero etc etc,
and that culture returned to her sons of soil, you must
be suffering a lot, I do underatand you son ! nothing
of indian belongs to India anymore, Sanskrit, Kamasutra,
Arithmatic, everything just GONE to Pakistan. tell me what
do you indians possess ? apart from Mughal period
constructed temples of 16th 17th centuries, and unknown
sohni-mahinwal (Pakistani) episode of Nehro / Lady
” Mountbeaton” unfinished frustrated love affaire !!
3. Oh no dear, yes, you are still indulged in those terrorist
attacks everywhere in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Indian
ocean Islands, Bangladesh, etc etc
4. “Indian Military authorities and civil servants forced
Kashmiris to cast fraudulant votes by black-mailing and
hostages taking ”
( UNO reports, human rights correspondant, Amnesty Int.
Indian journalists in Srinagar,) etc etc Why don’t you show
it to the world ?? if you have nothing to hide !!
5. the rest of your comment is not even worth reading !
as you are nil in history ! even your own !!
6. I can give you some lessons on your own history, free !
eDitor @ kalsoom,
@ Rafay kashmiri
Proud of your origins. Are you from Iran persia or kurdish or sunni or suffi ?.your islamist temperment are so great that no your kith and kin are sacrificing their lives .Are you a relative of Suddam Hussein .How may land do you want for graveyard.?
@ Sutch,
My no. 3
please include other victims of India as
- Nepal, India is responsible directly the Maoist terrorism
- Sri Lanka, tamil terrorist are helped entirely by India,
India wants to annexe jafna, & the entire upper north
of Sri Lankan Province,
- Sikkim already annexed by India, Bajpaie even tried to
negociate with China, if it accepts Sikkim as part of Indian
territory, then India will also accept Tibet as part of China.
- India’s fate is written in Afghanistan,
I am confident that you would accept my “sutch” as such !!
@ Begum,
and you ? are you clandestine Iranian ? Kurdish ?
Iraqian ? pls do let us know who you are?
Most of us are Pakistani origin, and are concerned
about oru country torned apart by the events imposed
on us, by who ? you can judge thru comments !
I wish Iraq of Saddam Hussain could have a blog
like Kalsooms, free, critical, open, democratic, healthy
and direct ! perhaps unforntunately Iraq never had
freedom, yes we are proud of our humble origin,
obtaining freedom with great sacrifies, !
Well Americans have turned many countries into
graveyards, we have to stop it. I might give you some
comfort if you tell me your problem ?
@ F,
what is your problem ?, who is interested in your
Guru’s love-poetry morals. Accusing and hating someone,
has some large differetial variations, next, you will be
bringing in your Gandhian non-violance and yoga
accessoires, your fatalism is only favourable to BATILANS,
Madame/Monsieur, WE MUST NEUTRALIZE THESE
BATILAN TERRORISTS WHO ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN
THE SO CALLED CLASSICAL TERRORISTS.
To CHUP! Editor – Kalsoom
If u read the history India never Invaded any country
What i mean by “Even though we don’t do anything wrong” is half true i.e. “we dont do any thing wrong nor we do right”. Its lack of action on the ground from the Indian government which we lead to this.
Yes, People in India are more angry on our own government as reasons are stated as above. One point I agree upon is that there are not enough steps are taken by the government of India to ease tension. We have absolutely no problem with Pakistan but they should stop these terrorist from attacking to India.
We are not at all interested in Fighting as we are with the compition with china..and will be Super power in years to come but if Any Elements in Pak are coming our way we have to do something..
I used to think that I am moderate, I never believed in this religious things. But 3 Day Violence has changed my mind.
There are 40 Muslims dead in 200 dead in attack. Muslims have refused to bury then in there graveyard.
There are problems in our society and In our Democracy too but I think we are smart enough to solve our problems on our own.
Whenever my friends and I had discussion I always said that Fighting is not the solution there has to be a dialog with Pakistan to solve all outstanding issues. But seeing 3 days carnage, My mind has changed drastically. We cannot let people die like this.
We got our freedom with non-violence but british were more civilized than these terrorist.
I urge people like ‘Rafay Kashmiri’ to study there own country solve problem there.
@Sutch,
since you have addressed to Kalsoom, I have to wait,
as I had chewed your whole comment with rage and spat
it out right now, but I will get you paragraph by paragraph,
until then, chiao !
@ Rafay Kashmiri
You can give ur comments ….
@ Sutch,
if you insist ! I think your comments to Kalsoom contains
some intoxicated and “abnormalcy-ridden” inferiority
complexed claims, that Indians are known to be expressing
every now and then,
1. India never invaded ? do you really need to invade, if
your fabricated religion obliges you to kill the fellow
human beings in millions since thousands of years on the
very sub-conti, following barberic theory of
The Purusha Creator’s from whoes body the cast system
emerged, Chatravernas !! you have comited so many
Genocides, the latest is of Kashmiris.
2. People of India are less întelligent than their cows, that
their high caste leaders tell them any junk, they believe
them!! or they want to !! Govt of India is NOT their to
ease tensions ! did’nt you get it ?
if you have no problems with Pakistan, then why giving
problems to Pakistan ? somewhere, someone is lying !
a . not recognized Pakistan uptil now
b . created Bangladesh !
c . having three Pak political partie’s bases run by India !
d . River’s water held iligally, heading towards a War !
e. Sarcreek, Siachen, Kashmir
f . assassinating, murdering Pakistani prisoners in Indian
prisons
g . Genocide of Kashimiris in Kashmir deploying 700.000
Indian Army killers.
The Indian Govt. should stop state-terrorism. Pls. see several
points raised in my last comment to you.
3 . Absolutely wrong, India is always interested in
fighting and attacking Pakistan, the only obstacle in
imposing Indian hegemony in the subconti !
what ? you are in competition with China, you must be
out of your mind, pls. go back to my comment .
Sorry, this day dreaming is unique, Indians have to drink a
lot of “Gaanja” to keep on sleeping and dreaming !!
4 . if you are really Indian, and you say that you were
moderate, it will be a nice joke though, a moderate Indian
never existed, you guys are as fanatics as takfiris, the
newly wed India’s brother-in-laws.
40 muslims murdered by Indians, why you want them
to be burried, a monument should be erected in their
honour, as they were targetted assassinated by Indian’s
elite group of 1200 verses 9, you indians are such
enormous nils.
your 5th and 6th paras are nothing but pure hypocrisy and
double standard Indian culture, you guys are made of that
genetics, the fake one, coward and boot-lickers.
as for the second last line, you say
” we got our freedom with non-violence but the British
were more civilized than these terrorists ”
someone must have really cold blood or not even have pure
blood to utter such diabolic historical bullshit, you are so
use to the lies and cheats that your bleeding leaders been telling you because they were the boys of Brits,
Indian-Hinduvta’s animals have killed 5 millions of muslims in two months, august and september in 1947,
tell your arsholes Indian historians not to forget to register such massacres, other wise the whole world will call their mothers with names ! OK
I know my country as I was born in that country, which gave
me freedom a flag and a ntional anthem, which is mine
till my last breath. My country Pakistan, alone fought with
two most atrocious civilizations , Brits and Hinduvtas, and
kicked them both in their ars, and snatched away the land
the SACRED PAKISTAN.
One can see you don’t even know your own land very much !
and to talk about your history ?
cheers
PAKISTAN ZINDABAAD
@ In Mumabi blasts RAW used entirely, the Tamil Tigers,
the photos of the two completely black, certainly Tamil
origin. If some one says they are from Lashkar from
Kashmir, either they are joking or they are colour blind.
No body wants to give a ” helping Hand to RAW “.
@ Rafay Kashmiri
I can write rubbish like you did, Then Threre wont be any difference between you and me.
Only Time will tell who are terrorist.
Whole world knows that where terrorists comes from.
Pakistan is about to get declared as terrorist state. So please address this problem. If it is not addressed now I dont see any future for Pakistan.
I sincerely what pakistan to excel and we Indian’s are ready to help but Pakistan has to change its attitude.
Wont write henceforth as I have written enough and expressed my view.
Thanks..
Indian government has lost its mind after these attacks and they are continuously blaming Pakistan, in fact their foreign minister pranab mukherjee made a threatening phone call to zardari but he denied it aterwards which is amazing!
http://www.freeakhbar.com/2008/12/08/mukherjee-denies-phone-call-to-zardari-and-declare-it-prank/
Please check following news:
http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/08/top3.htm
@ Sutch mutch dear,
” I can write rubbish like you did ”
listen, what do you think you have been writing uptil now ?`
I made you answer, however,
the difference between you and me is, that
” you talk nonsense ” and I simply correct you !!
wait for the time when I will come on you like
a sunami !! sutchi mutchi
@ Sutch
What’s the matter Sutch?! I think you don’t have anymore points to put across after hearing the bitter truth from Rafay … I was actually looking forward to what you have to say after that … You say that if you wrote “rubbish” like rafay, there wouldn’t be a difference between the two of you … Please do let me know what you’ve been doing in your past few comments??? It’s funny because even after saying that, you just HAD to blurt out one last poop from your mouth … It’s so typical …
You said that the whole world knows where the terrorists come from … I think you should have a second and maybe third look at rafay’s arguementsbefore pointing fingers at us … We pakistanis may not be saints … Neither are the Indians … We’re not the only country in the whole wide world concieving terrorists so think twice before accusing us indirectly!! Besides we our own problems than to be bombing you down …
You may or may not want Pakistan to excel … Only you know that better than us … But Indians are definitely not willing to help Pakistan do so and history provides us with more than enough evidence of it …
If Pakistan needs to change its attitude then same goes for India …
I am sure there are many rational people on both sides-not just those spewing hatred with half baked conspiracy theories.
Frankly, there is no justification for massacres, and no goal is worth it. These sophisticated expensive operations could not be carried out by just a bunch of disgruntled youth so people gotta admit this is a problem beyond the reaction to social ills or ‘injustice’
It is for the first time that a perpetrator has been caught alive-so if skeptical folks will NOT BELIEVE his confession about LeT masterminding this, at least believe the satellite phone trail, or the evidence on abandoned boats, or the unexploded grenade tagged of its Paki factory origin. And frankly, what’s in a name? It could be any group, but if they keep getting a refuge in the country, they could morph in thousand forms and tomorrow attack other countries too- their core philosophy is same even if offered rationale may differ(Kashmir/Anti-US/perceived insults). I believe Indian Muslims have got the best deal in the Muslim world. They are part of an open society and whoever says they face discrimination, has a ‘victim’ mindset. Isn’t this the same country whose ex President is a respected Muslim, where Muslims study along side their Hindu brothers at IITs/IIMs (via an open competitive exam) and many successful execs in India’s corporate world are Muslims, a country where they can open any business and worship anywhere. Can you tell me where in Saudi Arabia is a non-Muslim allowed to practice his faith in public or open a business without a local Arab partner? I have grown up with some fabulous Muslim friends in India and now I live in US- I know its stupid of some Indians to just put a wrong philosophy on the head a whole religion. What I get confused about and an not able to explain to the fanatics on our side is when they question how can a religion that is said to be the religion of peace have phrases in its book to justify converting/killing a non-believer(infidel)!! At least that’s what many radicals justify their actions as. If it has indeed those sentences, modern Muslims need to interpret it as something that is not relevant now. Where is the simple human value of co-existing even if you disagree or practice a different faith?
While I agree there is no military solution and it will only harden the moderate good thinking people of Pakistan when we talk of things like attacking Pakistan etc. But at least a recognition of problem needs to come from rational Pakistanis who need to realize their own nation and its civic fabric is in peril-Frankenstein can eat you more readily since it has easiest access to your land. A stable Pakistan is in everyone’s interest. Believe me, criticizing the govt/state of Pakistan is not same as Pakistani citizens-most of whom themselves have suffered a lot during attacks in their country.
Skeptics need to shed their hesitation and open their eyes-tackling things like these is not just about evidence that can stand in a court room trial or try to find ‘root causes’, but is also the ability to read social undercurrents, mobilize public opinion to do the ‘right thing’ and stand up and say its WRONG, WHATEVER be the reasons behind it. So I find it amusing when some posters even refuse to express regret or say ‘we condemn it BUT look at what Indians are doing in Kashmir…’ (you may want to read NYTimes columnist Tom Friedman who understands the Middle East’s psyche from his years spent there):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/opinion/03friedman.html?th&emc=th
Don’t you understand, the whole concept of ‘India’ will shatter if Kashmir could separate on the basis of religion- then how can India justify its constitution that says its a secular state and all religions co-exist and how can more Muslims than Pakistan live here? That’s why its so important to Indians and they resent so called separatism in Kashmir.
Also I hope we Indians will do some self-reflection- how can we take care of our people and also spend money on securing them rather than spend billions protecting corrupt inept politicians. You are already seeing this anger against politicians in India in the demonstrations or when you talk to Indians.
I would really know the tide is turning when ordinary Pakis say ‘not in my name, not the in the name of my religion, not on my land- these scoundrels who do this need to be banished’
@Manish,
have come to rescue Sutch ? if it so, you failed, in
your comment, ‘ grosse ‘ 3rd para, is grotesque
crap as usual, pls. refer yourself to my precedent comments,
you avoided answering them because, you are in a difficult
position to defend, you even ask ny times Tom Friedman to
help you with some vocabulary from Tel Aviv !
look at this,
at first the terrorist declared openly to the whole damn world,
I saw that on 5 European TV simalteneosly, and declared
” they were from Daccen Hyderabad India, the terrorist said
he was residing in Hyderabad ”
but the f***ing reporter kept on insisting the terrorists,
“are you from Pakistan ?
sudenly the policy changed, now they came from Multan,
Dera Ismail Khan, and the rest of Indian bullshit.
pls go to the thread where Sehrish confirmed the same
damned attitude of reporter against Pakistan, Sehrish was
replying to your compatriote Neha ben !
other wise your long comment is boring to death !!
@Sutch,
Get to work man, u can’t win argument against hate.
More so I don’t agree with few things you have mentioned, about us staging terrorist attack in Pakistan.
Let’s ask more questions from our government rather than explaining ourselves.
@ Sameer,
sutch started the hate game, and he was silenced,
just check the comments, they are there !! all of them,
I don’t know why the mad world is looking at Pakistan ?
Mumbai is in India, and Raw is Indian, the terrorists were
and are and will remain Indians, Indian Armies have been
deployed in Afghanistan for a religious Yatrah, if not
participating in Muslim’s massacres, Pak Army should get
Indian buts before even they move !!
Even the western medias have shut their traps on this
subject of Mumbai, they don’t trust anymore Indian jugglers.
Now UN also agreed that Terrorist were from Pakistan..So Now you must have come to know about my comments ‘Only Time will tell who are terrorist’ on 8th of December.
What I think is there is no point in explaining anything to people like ‘Rafay Kashmiri’. There are all brainwashed like 10 terrorist in Mumbai attack.
@Rafay Kashmiri
Pakistan is living on 7b$ borrowed from International community. so dont think that you are match to us on any criteria be it economy or military so leave that option.
We dont have to do any thing one day people like you will be responsible for new map of Pakistan.
but still there is time to correct mistakes and catch all the terrorist and destroy all the terror camps.
Pakistan cannot do anything but to listen to India and US because it has no option. but there is no point in acting on others orders but to change itself within.
Pak gov has to dissmantle ISI which is responsible to all this.
In my view This pak government is sincere and will work out something but it has to walk on tight rope.
@ Rafay Kashmiri
“I don’t know why the mad world is looking at Pakistan ?”
… dude u provide the answer before asking the question. To make u read ur own writing, “because the world is MAD and sanity prevails only through you.”
I do not want to pull rest of Pakistan along with you, because people in Pakistan face clear and present danger and if you will go and explain your theory to poors of India and Pakistan, they will ask you to give $2 per day to take care of there families.
So enjoy your drink while discussing your theories with your hard boiled intellectual friends. You will find a lot of them in India and Pakistan who love their arm chair.
@ Sutch
“Pakistan is living on 7b$ borrowed from International community. so dont think that you are match to us on any criteria be it economy or military so leave that option.”
If India had given the newly estblished Pakistan its fair share of financial, economic and military assets, we wouldn’t need to be borrowing money from anyone. Don’t call your selfish selves better than us when you’ve been the root to Pak’s financial difficulties …
If ISI is responsible for all this, then we should dismantle RAW too, for not being able to figure out a pre-planned attack … these 10 terrorists (like i mentioned in another threaD), had enough ammunition to last them 3 days straight … Weird how these ten guys managed to get all this ammunition to its all those hotels and everything, and NO ONE noticed … Fishy fishy fishy!!! RAW defintiely has alota potential if it was unable to catch these dudes!!! Go RAW!!! >=P
@ Sameer
dude i agree with you but at the end of the day what’s wrong is wrong …. You can’t just go around pointing fingers at us when we’re not intirely on the wrong!!! So we gotta do what we gotta do!!
@ Sehrish
…you and us have been bought up as we have been bought up…u will never trust us and we will never trust u…u will point at our agencies and we will point at ur agencies…we will have to live with it as we do not have any other option…and may be distrust is not such a bad thing…it keeps you protect your front and back…instead if we go on war both of us have enough weapon to destroy the world 5 times over and no one will come out winner…so kicking butts is not an option…atleast in India we do not require international arm twisting for our agencies to crack down on Hindu fundamentalist involved in Samjhauta blast…that part is handled by our political parties and thats why opposition is essential in a democracy…something similiar should happen in your country as well…hypothetically let’s assume that Pakistani soil does not have any links with what happened in Mumbai/India…how would you explain what happened in Merriot and Peshawar and all the blasts that are happening in your country?
…another on big conspiracy of the world against Pakistan?
@ Sutch,
you make me laugh at your UN condemnation of
LeT, I bet the ninkumpoops of UN can not even
pronounce the word, I am able to Judge your UN
resolutions, and all of them and stuff them in their
eternally closed drawers of thick salaries receiving
every month for doing nothing but licking boots of
their F*****ng favrite LOBBYs, just look at the records
of your UN, was it efficient on Iraqi wars ?
Weapons of Mass destructions ?
Genocide in Rwanda ?
Afghanistan ? Chechnya, Sudan.
I know them well since 1993 Jogoslavian conflict, and
the Int. Penal Tribunal for Bosnia, Rawanda
the Palestinian problem & Israel ?
its nothing but a bordel of nonpolitical, retarded thick
arseholes run by Batilans.
Sutch, and you are dancing on the UNO resolutions
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hah !.
¨@ Sameer,
your are not only a big mouth, your brain has gone
bananas, as Sehrish very nicely put, yes, India had stolen
our share of British Indian Cash reserves in the banks,
our share of office matrial,
our share of properties
our share of army supplies X 3 armies
our share of land revenu
and many others
India is still running with our foodstuff smuggled across
the border, even thru Afghanistan.
Now Indian thugs have stolen our waters !
India is a big big big Khakhahole with nothing inside.
@ Sameer,
Listen India is a integral part of an
International Consortium for Terrorism where other
partners are CIA, MOSAD, MI6, KHAD, and RAW alongwith
other small shareholders.
I call this consortium B A T I L A N S
Marriott was blown by the above thru small shareholders.
and Mumbai was done by ahm ahm amm mm RAW !!
mark my word, we have arrived at the truth !!
@ Sameer,
Listen India is an integral part of an
International Consortium for Terrorism who’s other
partners are CIA, MOSAD, MI6, KHAD, and RAW alongwith
other small shareholders.
I call this Consortium B A T I L A N S ( since 9/11)
Marriott was blown by the above thru small shareholders.
and Mumbai was done by RAW !!
mark my word, we have arrived at the truth !!
@ Rafay Kashmiri
You have arrived at the truth. Adios!
@ Sameer
Finger pointing is bitter I know … I thought you were a nuetral Indian but at the end of the day … no one can stand anything bad being said about their country and you expect us to shut up?! I don’t think so!!!
Ciao!!!
@ Sehrish
I am nuetral Indian and that is why I am on this board but its irritating when someone not open to any logical reasoning. We all come to have a constructive discussion over here, but if anybody is so convinced by her/his notions that there is no scope of debate, why come to this platform? This attitude is annoying even if we are debating movie and this is a much much bigger issue.
For a change I place an editorial from Dawn. My heart goes out for the family.
http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/revealing-the-faridkot-mumbai-link-wk
I hope people will not find conpiracy in the tragedy.
@ Sameer,
keep your Indian heart feelings for the family,
Faridkot was a stunt and all fake, Dawn reporter
fabricated, where is this family, why does’nt it come
forwards and calrify,
Are you neutral Indian ?
I thought they were exterminated
in Ayudhia babri Mosque. Your only
constructive discussion, is nothign but anti-Pakistan
so what do you expect from us a flower garland
of Indian “Gendwa” ?
inevery comment one outof three paras are nothing
but a pain-in-the-arse piosonous remarks, its all there
betweenthe lines.
Sehrish/Rafay,
Mate, you know what your problem is?-you are so wedded to your own prejudice, that even if the captured gunman were to come and tell you, you would refuse to believe him and put that as RAW/Indian conspiracy! On one hand you castigate them as incompetent, not able to prevent attacks, on other hand you ‘credit’ them with sophisticated Mariott bombings and other bombings everywhere! DECIDE-either you can call them incompetent or you can call them as dreaded agencies who can attack anywhere-inside pak or indian elite hotels-can’t call them BOTH.
What matters is what the world sees as dangerous trends emerging from Pakistan. Even rational Pakistanis are realizing it. I was looking at one Paki Adnann’s comments and was very glad that all is not lost. See his comments at:
http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/response-to-thomas-l-friedman%E2%80%99s-article-%E2%80%9Ccalling-all-pakistanis%E2%80%9D/
He is the commenter at ‘Adnann December 8, 2008..’. Even your own newspaper Dawn has unearthed the truth but you can still continue to deny it- your choice (I bet now you will call them also Indian agents! ha ha I did not know Indian agents were so effective)
http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/revealing-the-faridkot-mumbai-link-wk
Thankfully the government and some good thinking people like Adnann above realize the risk to your own country and hence the police/army is acting(even if under international pressure) and banned the agencies suspected linked to attacks
Indians are not problem free and they have huge social and poverty problems. But at least it is a functioning democracy and does not deny problems exist inside it and is a much stronger country than it was 10 years ago. While Pakistan has continued on a downward spiral.
No one is doubting the inept handling by Indian agencies and their lack of preparedness in preventing the attacker coming by sea or their bumbling response. If this had happened in a developed country, at least police would have better guns and the strategy to end it earlier. Local Indians are angrier at their govt, more than at Pakistan. In contrast, you guys will continue to deny problems exist that have an impact on rest of world- harbouring of jihadis and deny what are plain facts to rest of the world. In the end, what matters is not the opinion of two blindfolded individuals who are happy boosting each other’s delusional theories, but the opinion of the world community and rational Pakis. And they will make sure Pakistan govt acts and also save its own country from disintegration. US also has primary responsibility to help solve problems it helped create in 1980s that gave birth to these extremists.
I will now onwards refuse to engage with individuals who keep their eyes and ears close-I am sure there are plenty of other rational people in your country who will know the danger of that. I wish Pakistan well
Concerned Aussie,
I actually agree with Adnann’s comments on Pak Tea House, and that is the stance I try to take when writing this blog – a “more fair and balanced approach” if you will. Before you write off all Pakistanis, keep in mind the medium on which you read these comments on the first place. I like to think I am rational in my approach to politics and that I try to consider all sides before analyzing the situation. At the same time, I allow for free and open dialogue among the commentators, not only do I learn a lot about perspectives that may differ from my own, but I also understand that my voice is not always right. So while you may disagree with some commentators, I do hope you continue to visit CHUP, thanks.
I am not at all writing off all Pakistanis and that is the reason of my wanting to post my thoughts. I am sure there are 10 rational Pakistanis for every one with blinkers and similar must be the case in India. And that is what gives me hope. Its just I read a few comments by some posters that seemed so far fetched from reality and always leaning to conspiracy theories and responding to tough questions with just name calling, that it was impossible to ignore them.
@ concerned aussie,
before you disappear ” pour toujour ”
Its not very difficult to understand Pak Politics,
it does turn around the Pakistan’s creation, 1947
The leftist, seculars/marxist, aetheists, trotskyst
prolitaria, are basically pro-Indian, they are
solidaire with Indian homologues, since last three
decades, their anti-Islam activities both intellectually,
and politically against Islam has taken an envergure.
Islam is the religion of 88% of Pakistani, whether
accepted or not by the above, Politcally they have
activated themselves now, and have largely
underestimated the muslims, and have formulated their
secret agenda, which is :
1. Promote gradually towards a total Secularism in Pakistan.
2. Offer and Promote Suffism as alternate to Islam i.e. to
replace Islam with suffism which largely arranges India
to “invite ” Pakistan to rejoin her territorially, and finish
with muslims for ever !!
3. They have formed alliances, e.g. between PPP, MQM and
ANP (three to be kept in mind, ‘ PAM triangle’ )
4. Actual Federal Govt is of PPP,
FATA and NWFP war affected areas, ANP’s Govt.
Karachi and Sindh MQM
5. breakup of Pakistan half of it goes to India, the other
to construct a PIPRLINESTAN !
” All three of them very very pro-Indian, and secular ”
The PPP Governor of Punjab declares ” we are secular ”
PPP Sherry Rehman declared, we are progressive and
secular,
MQM had already declared longtime their choice of
secularism
” One thing is quite common among them they are
all totally anti-Islam ”
I can forsee an ideological catastrophy within Pakistan,
if India does’nt attack Pakistan. PPP Govt days are counted!
This is how another disaster created by the communists
will take enormous toll ! Stalinism is still alive !
you will cetainly reply me, not today, but next year certainly,
remember what I told you !! you can show my comment to
Mr Adnann of pak Tea House.
@conerned aussie,
just check your comments where you judged
others pakistanis, myself and Sehrish like an
intoxicaed colonial Catholic Priest doing his ” job”
excercising their rights to write off colonies,
don’t worry, just be carefull what you write,
as you have the right, I have also to judge you !
If you are Indian btw, you will deserve my special
attention. OK ?
@ rafay, kindly be kind enough to reply my questions in yes or no.
1) are you happy/ok about what happened in Mumbai?
2) You good in sports, any physical activity?
3) Your parents agree with your views?
4) you study/studied in madrasa?
And this one you can answer subjectively:
Lets agree Kashmiri muslims were massacred, tortured and all, but I am still unable to comprehend your concern for them. I mean in genocide in Rwanda two lakh tutsis were killed, I know it was wrong, but I dont hate rwandans for that. Infact my personal problems are so many I find little time to think of national problems, let alone problems of other countries. So how come problems of Indian Muslims or palestinians have such great impact on you?
I have gone through all thats been discussed so far, and I am amused and couldnt help but develop a pshychological interest. You answer my questions and I shall be in debt of you.
@Others: most thats been talked of till now is about past. Lets talk of what’s going to happen in future. I believe Pakistan will do nothing, and neither would INdia. People will forget all in a month.
Pakistan will try hard though to sustain peace on its western borders, unstability in pakistan will only rise for a few more months. And once Obama is sweared in problems of terrorism from Pakistani soil shall reduce greatly by putting pressure on pakistan. Both india and pakistan shall benefit from that I suppose.
adios
oooooo.
wat a discussion dear all,
@Rafay Kashmiri
@Sehrish
hi guys. u both love urs country very much as ur comments shows.
good
but tell me after this discussion hu will win the race. no one
inocent ppl died every day. whather in kasmir, mumbai, karachi , islamabad.
what we r doing is we are killing our brothers and sisters.
niether in kuran and nor in geeta, it nowhere wiriten that killing inocent is good.
please dear stop this talk coz this will increase ur hate towards each other.
today we need to think that wat we can do as country men so that are future genration will proudly say that we are living in geart country.
where there is happiness all over no one kill or even hert any one.
so my request is that please stop talking and do some thing for respective country to remove the terror hate from the people of respective country.
good bye frinds
god bless both country with happiness and prosparity.
@ Rafay
“….. myself and Sehrish like an
intoxicaed colonial Catholic Priest doing his ” job”
excercising their rights to write off colonies,
don’t worry, just be carefull what you write,
as you have the right …. ”
Rafay like I have already said in another thread .. We’re debating here on politics, NOT RELIGION … The above statement … Knock Knock! I’m a Catholic … I’ve supported you all the way through with all your arguements against Indians … But I’ve never agreed with whatever you’ve said about different religions … You … This comment … This is just insulting … I mean .. I actually don’t know what to say … For once, I’m outta words … Um … 4get it.
@ Rafay
I think it’s YOU who need’s to be careful about what they right … dude!
@Sehrish,
don’t see any reason for getting angry, you have plenty of
comments, where I am as severe with muslims as I am with
any other “appartenance”. I will be also severe with
colonialism, whether it is Catholic, Communist, secular or
religious, it does’nt mean that Catholic Priest is Christian
Symbol ?
even if it is , all the Christians should not be judged as
devil, like all the muslims should not be judged as Takfiris
or Al-Qaidah. Can you show me one single comment on this
blog or other 5 blogs on which I am active, where religion
is distinctively ignored when discussing Politics, nearly
the whole debate on all the 5 continent’s TV Radio is
Islam verses the west, Islam and Talibans or Al-qaidah
myself being a normal muslim, am I not concerned ?
Was Vatican not colonial ? slave selling, corrupt, killers ?
on the other hand please don’t tell me Catholics don’t have
their talibans, Al-Qaedah, Neocons, 300.000 major sects
only registered in USA !
Sorry I can never accept any extremism or fanaticism,
I have to write what I honestly think, hypocrisy is clever
and diplmat, sorry I am not that clever !
” Concerned aussie as an intoxicated Catholic priest doing
his job……….. ” what is wrong or personal in it ?
as you are new to this kind of combat, I wonder what
would be your reaction once you go thru the eintire blog or
blogs, btw I must inform you that for the last 15 years
as a founder member of interreligious dialogue, am active
with the Rabbi and Bishop but am member of palestinian
association also, have nothing against judaism or
Christianity but am not oblige to agree with State of Israel
and Vatican, I speak and write burning materials against
them in the newspaper but, politics is politics.
@ Ghoda,
1. NO, Under the umbrella of International Consortium of
Terrorism india made a gaffe, am worried !
2. swimming, riding, squash, beautiful ladies, poetry.
3. demised, had reciproc admirations.
4. No, was taught Quran by a lady.
Try to understand. I am ethnically a Kashmiri, the valley is
Holy land for Kashmiri Muslims (Father’s side Srinagar, mother’s
side Anantnag, we are descendants of Brahman Pandits,
converted to Islam 17th century), Genocide of Kashmiris by
700.000 Indian army,
yes, does’nt mean I am obliged to hate all hindus or
Indians, like Rwandan tutsi, by Hutus, no one can forget or
obliged to forgive. If you have enough energy to dedicate
to personal as well as International problems, its good,
if you are brought up in an environment very political and
social with bit of freedom, I think you explore all the areas !
Human sufferings can be felt as well, not necessarily gone
thru. I can not forgive those who even commited Genocide
of Tutsis in Rwanda, I assisted it direct on TV. I feel concerned
as well !! pourtant they were Christians, killers and victims.
Ghoda
It is indeed very kind of you to take interest in these matters
which are very delicate and human.
@Daljit Singh,
Sardarji, kia baat ai, you are darn right Sir,
I will certainly talk and convince Sehrish to help us
maintain peace in both the countries, as Sehrish is
very intelligent and frank, hope will continue !!!
Rab rakha !!
@rafay
first, am sorry about your parents.
Now, please think about this:
I think very simply and try to generalise the things, so wont take facts into account.
1) You are raged over hindus and indians over what happened to Kashmiri muslims, so is my hatred and rage justified against pakistan and muslims in general over what happened in Mumbai?
If it is, should I move out with a gun and go on a rampage trying to kill those behind it?
Well, I would not, because in the first place, the terrorism is not a face of any religion, its done by a minority group, doesnt matter what religion they belong to, I shall trust the government to handle it by the laws and channels. In the same way, the crimes against Kashmiris were also a product of few individuals, and you should not blame India or hindus for that. THere are just crimes and criminals, no indians or hindus or pakistanis or muslims. So like you said”Under the umbrella of International Consortium of
Terrorism india made a gaffe”. I guess you mean the blame game by that, pointing finger towards pakistan. Now tell me this if the criminals are from pakistan what else is our government supposed to do? Now Brown has said with zardari that three quarters of the terrorist plots have roots in pakistan. Why cant you just acknowledge that you have a problem, and start from there. How long shall you continue to live in denial?
So I agree whats been done in kashmir is wrong(I wont even talk of atrocities against kashmiri pandits and terrorism there, because I really believe thats just another crime by another set of criminals, its not what I would use for my defence), now, can you agree that whats been done from pakistani soil against India is wrong?
2)I really wished to know if you were a sportsperson in a team game. In team game there is no place for hate in long term, you learn to respect your opponent at the same time become a social person in the team. anyway…
3) You say,”Human sufferings can be felt as well, not necessarily gone.” Well I completely disagree. I can understand, if not condone the repercussions from a child whose family is killed. But about the ‘feeling of suffering’, I believe thats the exact thing that Hitler used to manipulate anti Jewish feeling, the exact thing tutsi politicians used by their radio propaganda against hutus. So people who dont even know what suffering is go on to kill the people who havent done them any harm whatsoever. Life is an excellent teacher for me, I learn from my own sufferings, rather than being manipulated by sufferings of others(and one of the best lessons of life is, sufferings of mine may not be that bad for others and vice versa). So tell me, how you were personally affected by what happened in kashmir.
4) What exactly you propose as a solution of terrorism on pakistani soil(marriot bombing for example) and Indian soil, by the criminals who came from pakistan? If you still dont belive that Mumbai attacks were masterminded in pakistan just ignore the question, I dont blame you. But then you will have to write it down, that you believe in your heart that pakistan has no involvement in it. Trust me, I will hold nothing against you and we shall continue from there. We shall just start from what we both agree on
btw whats your age? you wrote some fifteen year experience in journalism. Do tell me something about you, refer a webpage or sth.
adios
@ ghoda,
terrorism is not the solution, but justice should be done ,
India must be tried before Int. court for crimes against
HUMANITY!
1. the world is raged over generally what is going on
in India with Dalits, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists
etc etc If you have the intention to compare all this
with Mumbai attacks, I disagree totally,!
India’s direct responsiblities in Kashmir’s Genocide is
evident and clear since 60 years, and its done with
Martial Law using 700.000 Indian regular armies,
with guns amunitions, axes, amputations, rapes,
extrajudiciary killings. and all kind of Nazi methods.
Mumbai attacks were Indian planning by RAW.
India is part of an International Terrorist Consortium
know as Batilans as I have identified them,
in Kashmir Indians have killed
92.000 Kashmiri muslims
7.000 inside the jails tortured and killed
10.000 muslimah Kashmiris women were raped by Army
22.000 reported disappeared
100.000 monuments buildings houses mosques were
demolished and destructed.
Inside India Gujarat, Ayudhia, Dehli Ahmadabad
and hundreds of villages where muslims are slaughtered
Nazi Hindu parties supported by Indian Govt.
You wrote in your 4 points nothing but bullshit, where as
the ground reality is just the opposite what the donkey
Gordon Brown said . Don’t waste my time
Ghoda!
Ha ha,…very funny..and an apt analysis. The quotes that you extracted are an amusing exhibit. And painfully clear that how good people can actually start believing in nonsense when that nonsense is repeated enough number of times.
You are right, no point in keeping such people engaged or try to reason out with them- they will still believe what they want to believe. They will take comfort that India has vast number of poor and accuse govt of suppressing them(when such problems exist in ALL big developing countries) or will shed crocodile tears over treatment of Dalits et al, when such issues have NOTHING to do with ideology or religion. In every country, especially one with India’s huge population competing for limited resources including jobs, education opportunities, land etc; there are bound to be feelings of deprivation/injustice etc. But you cannot make that as your reason for hating a country!
I feel proud of Indian Muslims and they are proud of their country. Don’t you see India has a larger Muslim population than even Pakistan!! If most of them were unhappy, they would have migrated. There are bound to be some radicals(in both religions), but that is not a reflection of country’s policies- you would still find those unhappy with Govt in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Malaysia etc.
So we should move onto others who will have more open minds and hearts, and from whom we can learn something and correct ourselves and in the process become better individuals and thinkers.
@ Ghoda and Pravar,
I am simply amused by your fantasmic
glorifications of yourselves as Indian
fake psychologists propagandists doing
your job ! but I still don’t understand it took
you 3 months to come to your official Indian
brand of “Panelists”conclusions.
Its funny though tideous
to concentrate and easily detect and smell
Indian blend in your phrases and the fake
end of your arguments, I found you Indians
nervous and undetermined in many ways,
consistant and weak grounds e.g. on
Minorities killings,
Muslim Genocide in Kashmir
Christian Buddhist killings
Dalits extermination
inside Pakistan terrorist attacks
another dozens of topics
where you guys are absolutely vulnerable, just
on a tray,
being a severe critic towards India means
Fanatic, this is half cleverless and the other half
non-intelligent of your classical approach.
you simply had bad surprise, admit !
you are welcome any time
@pravar
, after a long time I found something worth for others to read too.
dude, I have saved this blog and others in word file, so next time someone asks me… can education eradicate terrorism, I shall say ‘no’ and forward them the file. Furthermore, I uploaded it on my blogsite
http://manofconstantsorrow.blogspot.com/
And I dont write many blogs too
Infact am thankful to him to open my eyes, and giving me some great points next time am in debate with some friend regarding terrorism.
adios
@rafay..
am sorry but I read only your first line and the last two of your latest post, I tried the rest, but it just didnt stick.
First line:regarding ‘being amused’
You start with copying my opening phrase. Be original, but nahh you are a journalist, your life is about publishing words from some one else’s mouth. No offence taken.
second last line: regarding ‘you simply had bad surprise, admit !’
I admit I was surprised, but it was reaaaaaal Gooooood one. I was positively shocked.
last line:regarding ‘you are welcome any time’
just in your previous post you said I was wasting your time. But then again journalism. You have a birth right to go back on your own statements.
btw you didnt answer me, whats your age?
. I am sure am atleast 15 years younger than you, but still wanna confirm.
Ghoda, I am glad I was labeled as a “Pakistani friend” on your blog at least! haha!
@ CHUP! Editor – Kalsoom
… to your further astonishment you will always be a “Pakistani Freind” no matter how much you think us to be agents of RAW or Anti-Islam or from the circle of evil, which your not so generous has given fancy names.
Sameer-
I was not “astonished,” as you put it, merely appreciative – and reading my blog you should know that I am extremely open-minded when it comes to the India-Pakistan conflict – I am willing to accept where both sides have done wrong to each other – that is the only way we can move forward in our relations, not by finger=pointing and name-calling. Some of my closest friends are Indian and many were in some way impacted by the Mumbai blasts. Again, as I have said earlier, although I allow this blog to be a free platform of opinions, I consider myself to be very open and fair in my assessments – or at least I try to be. If that was ever in question, I apologize.
@ CHUP! Editor – Kalsoom
Thanks for clarification, appreciate it!
@Kalsoom,
I have noticed that you have promulgated Martial-law
on my right ot response by removing my e-mail
address in ” leave a reply “
@ ghoda,
you don’t have to be sorry, ” educated ” Indians
often do that, they only want to read what worries
their disclosure of ” monsonges”
you are only 5 years younger than me, but intellectualy
you have still maintained your childhood, boy !
you can inform your colleague Prava how you
came directly in my trap, and that you never liked
the way I massacred you in my Last “bad ” surprise
reply,which was as bad as a Sunami.
I am still awaiting your ” others” rather than your
” Bhanmati ka Kumba ” tribe.
the poet Shaikh Ibrahim zauq, (if you know urdu)
said which can be 105 % applied on your comments
Kam hongay is bisaat pe ham jaisay badqamar,
jo chaal ham chalay bohat he burri chalay
( you play chess as a vulgar gambler, your every
maneovrings were bad )
@ Kalsoom dear,
your ML ordinance has been suspended
by a little technique relevant article of NRO.
you have been accused of things you never did !
please count on my moral support for you.
Rafay-
Sadly, this blog platform is still a “democracy,” I have no idea how your “leave a reply,” disappeared, but I can assure you that I am far too technologically-inept to have done that.
@ Kalsoom,
I accept your explanation
without any hesitation !
I say, thank God, this blog
platform is still a Democracy !
When I was 13, I read school books, novels and spent my evenings in playground, what Mr. Kashmiri did and is still doing, in his own words …..
“for the last 15 years as a founder member of interreligious dialogue, am member of palestinian association, I speak and write burning materials in the newspaper”
@Others…
”
As for the Taleban’s tactics, Ins Gen Khan says they are clear.
“They would like to destabilise the city centres so they can put pressure on the government to get concessions in the tribal areas,” he says.
”
…can someone please explain this? what exactly taliban wants? (by ‘someone’, I include Mr. Kashmiri of course, he makes my day), or direct me to some blog where its been explained or discussed.
Ghoda-
Just to explain Gen. Khan’s statement – if Taliban militants (or Batilans, as Rafay puts it) destabilize the cities through violence and attacks – the people will automatically blame the government for not being able to provide security to its citizens. “Destabilizing” the city centers ultimately means undermining the legitimacy, power and authority of the provincial and central governments through the use of violence. The government, as a result, must act to halt such violence in order to restore some sort of credibility among the people – this may lead to negotiating with Taliban-linked militants, who can choose to put demands on the table in return for stopping the use of violent tactics – the demands can range from a ceasefire [which can afford them time for further growth or regrouping], or other concessions that can ensure them room for growth in power and influence.
I’ve written about a lot of these security-related issues – here is a link to past backgrounders (you’ll have to scroll through to find the ones related to the Taliban or militants – http://changinguppakistan.com/category/backgrounders/, and articles under the tag, “Taliban.” – http://changinguppakistan.com/tag/taliban/)
Hope that helps.
@kashmiri
mizazi khel ko khooni ranjish se na jod paidal
Yahan ghode ki dhai chalon me zanaja uth jayega
waise shatranj ki misalen badtameez nahi diya karte
har dimagi khiladi ka sir sharmidagi se jhuk jayega
ye watan ki jabani baten jawan khoon bhi mangti hain
ghar jaiye, betuke khayali waqiyon se apka gala sookh jayega
@kalsoom
thanks a lot bro
No problem, also here is an interesting interview I did with Farhana Ali, who is at RAND Corporation [a security/defense firm] – http://changinguppakistan.com/2008/05/26/a-security-experts-perspective-on-pakistan/
Finally, a recent interview with Shuja Nawaz, author of Crossed Swords – http://changinguppakistan.com/2008/11/12/a-military-perspective-on-pakistan-a-conversation-with-shuja-nawaz/
@ Ghoda,
you say now what you were doing when you were 13,
may be you were reading Ramayana, or novels on
MahaBharata, playing in the evening on a playing ground
cleansed from Dalits !! are you surprised at my
declarations ? I have nothing to hide like you, you may
be a member of Arya Samajh, or Shiv senah, Bajrang dal,
or Raw’s agent, we never know !!
and who are you asking for help you? who will come ?
your ignorance about Talibans is fake and hypocrite,
you have proved your tactics to underestimate your
adversaries, this is typical Indian’s inferiority complexes,
you know well that takfiri Talibans are militarily, financially,
and stratigically helped by Indians in India and Afghanistan.
Don’t worry you will come to know very soon what
Talibans want in Afghanistan with your “beloved” army.
Perhaps I shall learn from your experiences “soon”, all I
knew about Taliban, I explained it on this very blog, your
home work is so nil, you hav’nt mention so many things even
on this very thread from where you selected my passages,
and you know many blogs from where you can what you
“should get”, or looking for. I hope to judge your work as
interviewer, I have many surprises for you,
you are already on the line de mire, I have my panel of
experienced journalists (3) reading this blog with
amusement and curiosity.
Ghoda,
Loving it…Kya jumla mara hai..ekdam teer ki mafik. You are quite good and effective in neutralizing empty rhetoric and making a case piece by piece how an extremist is born and indoctrinated.
At the age when you and I were living simple childhoods, making friends, preparing ourselves for the future by studying and playing, Janab Rafay was busy ‘writing burning materials’ as he himself claims for last 15-20 years. No wonder his life just revolves around conspiracy theories and rage.
If he was a true Pakistani or Kashmiri, instead of burning his blood and provoking others, he would have contributed productively to the society, taken up a job that created jobs that lifted others off poverty and made his parents and community proud. But he is busy espousing rage (looking at the number of posts across all blogs he does, it seems he does no other work than to ‘write burning materials’!!)
ha ha I am really hooked to this blog/thread now-injurious to health. Every day I think I will not spend any more time, but Janaab kucch aisa atpata bol dete hain..ke mazra dekhne aana padta hai.
Aur aap to shayari bhi nosh karte hain? And this poor fella does not even realize and still thinks “the way he massacred you in my Last “bad ” surprise….” He does not even know what hit him.
LMAO..this is too funny. I do not dislike him, but pray to God to have him come to peace with himself(currently I am sure he wakes up in the night startled thinking some RAW agent is stalking him or he would be shedding croco tears for some Indian Muslims being tortured, when there is so much to do in his own country!). As I said earlier, no Indian Muslim wanting a good productive life would ever trade places with him.
@Kalsoom
You are a bro or sis?
As Sameer says, you will always be a friend and you are an important catalyst to provide a free platform for our societies to think critically, and take the right course of action. Both Indians and Pakistanis need foras like this.
Pakis, as long you do not discuss politics, are quite friendly and saaf dil people((from what I have been told, unlike the propoganda likes of Rafay went thru).
And believe me, most Indians think of common Pakistanis not as enemies, but as one other poster said, ‘cut from the same cloth’. Arre..we eat the same food, listen to same music, have similar dreams and a culture of close familial ties. I would love that day when I can freely visit Lahore and sample its beautiful culture, culinary delights, bazaars and meet the friendly people. But at this stage, I feel if I do that, some Jihadi may kidnap our group and demand Indian Govt to release another Maulana Azhar and of course we are no Indian home minister’s aulad that Indian govt willl oblige(after all neta to sab jagah ek jaise hee hote hain)!
P.S. My Urdu is not strong, but I love the language, have grown up in a small town with many Muslim friends for whom Tahzeeb was a big deal. So the idea of screaming marauding Muslim extremist elements does not gel with my world view of Muslims.
@ Ghoda,
sorry I can not read Gujarati !
give us Urdu poetry of Maestros ” Ustaad” asatizah
I don’t think you are that cultured.
I always had this language problems with Indian ladies,
they were all beautiful but nil in Urdu. Imagine how did
we got along with Indian-English accent and my Urdu ?
any way here is one easier for you, the poet is Indian
well know poet Jagan Nath Azad,
Anjanay mein kartay hein sitamgar ki himayat,
jo log sitamgar ko sitamgar nehin kehtay
Khair, I hope you guys AND Rafay can come to peace with each other. I don’t think Rafay means as bad as sometimes it seems, and vice versa [although the name-calling is uncalled for, in my opinion, something I pointed out before]. To be fair, Rafay can put forward some very interesting points, and because I tend to come from the other side of the spectrum, it provides some food for thought. Just being fair and putting forth my two cents as the moderator of these comments!
Pravar, I am, in fact, a “sis.” I am really happy to see Indians on this forum – my vision when I started this blog almost a year ago was to write articles and analysis that spurred discussion among people from all over the world. Blogs are a platform that allows that to happen. I’m glad you enjoy it so far, and I hope you continue to visit and participate in the discussions at hand.
@ Pravar,
I think I can detect ! Mumbai syndrome
in your comment, you are very usefull.
Your language is pure pendoo,
please don’t try to speak other languages,
stay with your English, you will see the
burning material now very soon.
Is Ghoda your responsible, in what capacity ?
is he your tutor ?
your are his protégé ?
on which blogs were you before ?
since when were you on his panel ?
answer my questions in confidence ?
don’t be nervous, calm down and think
of my questions which are not at all harmful to
anyone !
don’t respond to Ghoda, he is using you secretly,
he is going to denounce you publically !
I have warned you before ! do not stay near Ghoda!
ciao
@pravar
shukriya, shukriya.
Even I am getting addicted to this blog, so I will not be visiting it regularly now on, may be on the weekends. But I have written one more sher before leaving, hope you enjoy it. I have a big file of all of ghalib’s shers. With their translation, word by word in English too. Great collection. Let me know if you are interested.
@kalsoom
, but will be in touch
its a wonderful thing, keep it up. I will surely let my friends know of CHUP, who are interested in india pakistan affairs. I wont be posting regularly
@kashmiri:
tajjub hai, tamanna se karte hain ‘rafay’ se dosti
hum log, jo mazhabi nasal praston ki himayat nahi karte
pata hota ki padosi watan me maskhara baitha hai,
to padosan ke dard-e-kisson par ibadat nahi karte
inke bin-sar-pair jumlon se hum is kadar jhoom jate hain,
kabhi jukam ho jaye to ab hum shikayat nahi karte
hum to mazakiya ‘kashmiri’ ke zahid thahare,
wo kah dete to kasam khuda ki, shararat nahi karte
(nasal prast = racist;himayat = support;maskhara = clown;ibadat = worship/dedicate;zahid = fan)
@Ghoda,
Azaad Shaeri mein Filbadih jawab arz he :
- ta’ajjub nehin, duchmani jo kartay hein
dosti ke naam par
wo log jo, qatle sikhatay hein
nasal-paraston ko
- pata hota kiun bhaijtay
samkhota express mein, apnay piaron ko
jala dala hay insaniat ko
mazhab kay naam par
- meray bin-sar-pair kay jumlon pay
jhumtay ho tum,
jor diay sar-pair jumlon mein agar
to kidhar jao gay?
- ghoday agar hinhinanah chor dein,
shuroo kardein agar reynkna,
Rafay samajhlo, dunia mein
hogaya kaljug har taraf
Rafay Kashmiri
@ please read ” samjhota express ” in my
second couplet
read ” jhoomtay ho tum in the third couplet
thanks
@ Ghoda ji,
your reply of 15 dec @ 11.10am (madrassa summer camp)
to my comment of 15/12 @ 1.41 am
you have ducked the subject on Kashmiris muslims
Genocide by your Secular Hindu Indian Govt. Army,
exactly like poor Bush did, must remind you
Figures from 1994-2008
92.000 Kashmiri muslims were exterminated by India
7.000 Kashmiri muslim youth were assassinated while
in tortures cells of Indian Army
10.000 Kashmiri muslimahs were raped by Indian Army
20.000 Kashmiri muslims were announced by Indian
Govt.disappeared (assassinated)
100.000 monuments mosques, houses and buildings
were demolished destroyed burned by Indian
Govt Army.
Martial law in Kashmir with 700.000 regular and paras
terrorists soldiers raping your Democracy !!
the above is confirmed by All Kashmir Hurriet Conference
mr. Mirwaiz !
Rafay Kashmiri
@Rafay Kashmiri
mr. Mirwaiz is pakistani puppet …
nobody believes him even in kashmir..
Kashmiri people has shown there faith in Indian democracy by voting over 60% in election so If u dont talk about them that will be good.
Let it be…
For time being concentrate on Mumbai attacks and first get ur facts right.
I fill sorry about u as u have lot of info but it is all wrong. Start reading some good material and then give ur comments.
Dear Mr Rafay Kashmiri
Let me tell you before taking on the case of the Indian Muslims can you pelase set your own house…which is increasingly like a house of cards
- if Muslim genocide was so widely practiced in India as you would have us believe how come Muslim population has not gone down in India?I mean if we were to follow the example set by the state of pure then Muslims in India should have been less than 2-3% of the population- corresponding to the hindu population in your country?
- I can only recall the shameful incident of Babri Masjid as a case where a religious monument was destructed…. but what abt Lahore (one the largest cities in Pakistan) where temples were razed to make way for shopping malls?
- Please dont even refer to the all kashmir huurriyat…those dogs have no deen or imaan…just after money… they have brought such anguish to Kashmir and Kashmiris that when they pass through this world…they will burn in hell forever and ever….
- Almost 300,000 Kashmiri Pandits were forced to flee from Kashmir. Benazir Bhutto is known to be behind this ethnic genocide in the valley! Please view this video by Kashmiri filmmaker Ashok Pandit, “And the World Remained Silent,” (linked here, http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=ilfJDY8rA9I&feature=related andhttp://in.youtube.com/watch?v=u2vsztUdkpU&feature=related )
- the valley was a thriving economy and a peaceful place until Pakistan sponsored terrorism wrecked it!
- What abt the state sponsored genocide and rape of Hindu’s in Bangaldesh in 1971?
- As horrifying and shameful as the Babri Masjid demolition was not a single life was lost. The blasts in Mumbai, masterminded by a dawood Ibrahim (roaming about freely in Pakistan) is what triggered the ensuing riots.
- Gujarat is truly a blotch on Indian history but atleast we hope to learn from our mistakes….
There are countless Indians, who are followers of the Islamic faith, who occupy prominent positions in mainstream media, sports, politics (Ex president and current VP), Corporates etc…I dont think that would be possible if there was so much discrimination!
Before you post more rhetoric and jingoism please do introspect..kya aap doodh ke dhule hue ho?
@ Sutch,
your comment reflects your Indian origin !
I don’t want to dirty my hands, I won’t waste
time on you dear, you are done !!
@Indian Kashmiri,
your ridiculous claime has no grounds based on
Raws initiatives,
300.000 Kashmiri Pandits, have they been reproducing
in vacuum of youtube, tubing all fake Indianization of
sharnarthis, collecting funds. What fake story,
so many Pandits spoil Hindovtas, try to learn how to lie,
I know your identity, as your comments is repeated.
Ayudhia massacres were even echoed in UN.
Don’t replace Ghoda, changing names will be useless :
you fail to confront my Claim of Indian War crimes &
Genocide of Kashmiris, by denying Mirwaiz, you think you
have deviated attention of the world.
@ Fake Indian Kashmiri,
just one question before I send you a Sunami,
why you Indians don’t have enough courage
to invite International press, UNO team to
monitor your so called elections in Kashmir,
NOT ONE SINGLE FORIEGN, OR NATIONAL JOURNALIST
PRESENT IN KASHMIR, ITS ONLY INDIAN ARMY WHO IS
RUNNING THE SHOW, ARE YOU SO DONKEY-HEAD NOT
TO FEEL SHAME.
ref: Human Rights watch, Amnesty Inter. Human rights
commission, UNO election EU observers etc etc etc.
INDIA IS COMMITING A GENOCIDE OF KASHMIRIS,
ANSWER AFTER READING UNO DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE !
Rafay, please calm down! I understand you’re angry, but don’t call someone a “donkey-head” etc. There’s a better way to have a discussion!
Let me just re-state the comment policy on this blog:
“While Changing Up Pakistan aims to probe discourse on various topics pertinent to Pakistan, there are several policies we ask you to abide by. CHUP will not publish comments with foul, inflammatory or slanderous language. Comments that are irrelevant to the discussion at hand will also not be approved.”
Again, I will allow freedom of dialogue, but only to an EXTENT. I hate resorting to true comment moderation, but the moment comments irrelevant to the discussion are posted or use horrid insults that don’t add anything to the argument, I will decline the comment. I apologize guys, but I want to keep discussion *healthy,* and not allow dialogue that incites anger and further inflammatory language. Hope everyone can understand and respect that. Thanks!
Again, I apologize, but comments using harsh, disrespectful, or hateful language will not get posted. I am sorry it had to come to me “moderating” this forum, but I issued several warning prior to this – I am pretty leniant on the comments, so just make sure you follow the comment policy and I assure you it will get posted. Thx and sorry again.
@ Kalsoom,
On my side I am respecting the maximum
discipline & decorum like any debate on any
International forum, the other side must come
with authentic denials, not just ” Mirwaiz is
this or that “. if some one can deny or contest
they should bring forwards counter proves !!
e.g. Bangladesh’s hindu ” killed ” as if they were
waiting for Pak Army to start so called “killings of
hindus” who was Mukti Bahini if they were not Indian
Army agents ? why did they crossed the borders, which
made Indira Ghandhi announcing on French TV that
Indians had too much of Sharnarthis from E.Pak !!
1970 French TV A2 to french journalist.
Ok, hold on there, Rafay. First of all, my mother is Bangladeshi and my cousin was in the Mukhti Bahini. I have a certain level of objectivity and respect when it comes to the 1971 war because of the precarious position I hold of being a child of a Bangladeshi mother and a Pakistani father. The Bengali freedom fighters were NOT Indian agents, as you put it, but yes, they WERE being helped by India in 1971. I have done a lot of work and research on the war in 1971, interviewing both Pakistanis and Bangladeshis when I was in college, and to call the Mukhti Bahini “hindus” or “Indian Army agents,” was NEVER something I came across in my work.
@ Kalsoom you have unnecessarily, removed my comment
its not fair ! I protest !
@ during 1947, three months july august september
altogether 5 millions muslims were exterminated
from 1960 onwards thousands of muslims were
systematically massacred.
Kashmir Genocide continues as I still maintain figures
given my Mirwaiz, to all the International instances.
please refer to them.
@ Kalsoom,
Bangladeshi freedom Fighters were E.Pakistanis,
I must not agree with them, perhaps!
but Mukti Bahini was made & consisting of Indian
Army, traning and living around villages
in E.Pakistan ? don’t tell me they were all poets ?
I am not denying they weren’t helped and trained by Indian forces – but they began during the Bangladeshi, or East Pakistani freedom movement prior to the West Pakistan crackdown in the area. According to my past research and interviews with people, the Indian Army came into train and re-organize the freedom fighters after the crackdown had already started in 1971.
@ Kalsoom,
but why my comment was removed ?
I think you reacted unjust, why India’s name
be protected, while Pakistan’s name and its religion
is been targetted systematically, you don’t react on
other’s comment where they are insulting Pakistan ?
they ought to be removed as well, anyway I must
register my discontentement.
Rafay, your comment was removed because a lot of your reactions could have been stated in a less provocative way. I apologize for doing it, but I did give you a lot of lee-way and at least three warnings. I just officially instituted my “more firm” stance as of now, and, I assure you, to be fair, the next time someone from the other side makes an equally provocative statement, they will also be deleted for not following my comment policy.
Actually, in response to your question, I have deleted several comments in the past that unnecessarily spewed hate towards Pakistan and Pakistanis.
Again, I apologize, I know you’re discontent- you know I appreciate your commentary, especially when it’s said in a respectful way, I think you have a lot to contribute. Just please, if you don’t mind, try to tone down the language and everyone walks away happy
And just to add – I don’t think my comment policy is particularly stringent, I think I’m being fair on my end on what I expect from you guys!
@Kalsoom,
I don’t accept your clarifications ! you only gave me
warnings and passed on to the act of removing my
simple comment for reason you give is absolutely
inacceptable, please look at my comment and compare
it with follwoing
Dec 15
_____
Ghoda’s @ 11.10 am
Ghoda’s to Pravar @ 3.43 am
Ghoda’s @ 8.44 am
Dec 16
_______
Ghoda’s @ 1.45 pm
Pravar’s @ 3.05 pm
Dec 17
______
Ghoda’s @ 1.41 am
I went through the comments, and deleted one that I thought was provocative towards you. I think I am being really fair – and warnings tend to be followed with action if the person really does not listen to me. I am not trying to offend you or upset you, I am just trying to maintain some semblance of order (as opposed to anarchy) on this forum. If either party comes on this blog to pick a fight or make someone angry, not to discuss a topic, then that is not the purpose of this forum. I am still allowing there to be “democracy,” but democracy without any kind of moderation often is never a good thing. Rafay, thank you for pointing out the comments that offended you, I will do my best to be fair to EVERYONE from now on.
Again, I am not TRYING to be a bad guy right now, I am just TRYING to make this debate healthy, which would not include name-calling. Calling someone a terrorist is NOT okay, calling someone dirty or a Nazi, is also NOT okay. It is possible to speak to one another, even if you do not agree, with respect and kindness. I sound like I’m trying to be Oprah Winfrey, but all of this is getting out of hand.
@kalsoom,
), so I attacked him with his own words. Everything(except the title perhaps), was what he himself has said. Anyway, I have made certain changes in that entry, and I dont think its provocative anymore from my side, except the quotes by rafay himself.
I dont mind if you remove all my other comments, but the one entry where I brought him to shame with his own comments, is the one you removed. I personally am very calm and mild person(jain, in fact
If you still think its provocative let me know, and I will completely remove everything from my side, and will leave hundred percent his comments. But people here have a right to know, what kind of person they are dealing with, before wasting their time trying to pacify him, and should start discussion with the same level of hostility and aggression that he does.
I mean it, just remove all my other comments which rafay has pointed out. And then delete this one too.
No need to feel guilty about being a ‘nuisance’ in the discussions:). Feel free to delete personal or blood curdling discussions.
I was doing that poetry and all just for fun.
When I realised I cant contribute further to the topic in hand, I pulled out.
you are still a friend and shall remain so,
ghoda
JUST A MATTER OF TIME
I was amused by a fellow with excellent english publishing on this panel. And it did help me know how propaganda and manipulation can bias a person to the point of single minded insanity.
I will now present excerpts from what this guy, Mr. Rafay Kashmiri has said in this and several other blogs, judge yourself…
LUNATIC and just CRAZY comments(first step to be a fanatic I guess):
*Wolf ! Wolf ! Wolf !
*I think you have a ” sinus aigue ” problem, sort of blockage of brains
“His ” Economystical ” analysis reveals his transcendental highs are nothing but remote controled ” philosophy “.ask him to come to this blog”…………[regarding amartya sen]
*900 jiyalas red pyjamas “pacifists” junky Taseerists………..[regarding god knows what]
SELF GRATIFICATION with SELF EXPLORED’truth’(little education does that to them I guess):
*UN is a band of lobby lickers, my experiences indicates.
*The fake, so called fixed ” terrorist attack in Mumbai ” has turned against their own perpetrators. Both Indians and Pakistanis say that !
*In Mumabi blasts RAW used entirely, the Tamil Tigers
*India is perpetrating Genocide of Kashmiri Muslims
*Nothing of indian belongs to India anymore, Sanskrit, Kamasutra, Arithmatic, everything just GONE to Pakistan
*I don’t know why the mad world is looking at Pakistan ?
*India is responsible directly the Maoist terrorism
*India wants to annexe jafna, & the entire upper north of Sri Lankan Province
RACIST and RADICAL comments:
*you are certainly an Israeli Zionist bigmouth
*India & Israel wants = break up of Pakistan, disintegration of muslim Pakistan !but Inshallah their faces will be burned !
*Hindus with red-Orange band around his wrist instead of the Holy book
*People of India are less întelligent than their cows
*you still think that other agencies like CIA, Mosad, Raw,Khad, MI6, DST are ” pure ” Hare Raama Hare Krishna or Jesus Christ Charity Clubs ?
*you guys are made of that genetics, the fake one, coward and boot-lickers.
arsholes Indian historians
FELLOW BEING MANIPULATED(this I believe is what he read in madrasas and summer camps:)):
*My country Pakistan, alone fought with two most atrocious civilizations , Brits and Hinduvtas, and kicked them both in their ars
*Indian thugs have stolen our waters, office material and army supplies !
*Indian Military authorities and civil servants forced Kashmiris to cast fraudulant votes by black-mailing and hostages taking……..[hostage taking for voting?.. amazing]
*In Kashmir Indians have killed 92.000 Kashmiri muslims 7000 inside the jails tortured and killed 10000 muslimah Kashmiris women were raped by Army 22000 reported disappeared 100.000 monuments buildings houses mosques were demolished and destructed…………[am sure he has seen the videos of them too]
ANARCHIST:
*PAM Triangle” (PPP, ANP & MQM) are OUR ENENMY, we have a long fight !
*ANP, PPP and MQM have Indian agenda. One thing is quite common among them they are
all totally anti-Islam
*Dawn reporter fabricated……..[regarding confession of ajmal's father, dawn btw is leading national newspaper of pakistan]
LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST:
*wait for the time when I will come on you like
a sunami !!
so bottomline… education doesnt eradicate nothing, infact if gained by such people, it becomes a dangerous tool. What will become of this person, we shall see, its just a matter of time
So guys dont indulge this man further, he is unmalleable material, spend your time better with people who think between reading and writing.
Ghoda,
I completely appreciate both yours and Rafay’s contributions. While I tried to moderate these posts, I obviously angered Rafay and took away a post you were proud of. So I’ll let you both duke it out here – for other posts though, I’ll stick by my policy
Apologies to you both, but remember that if my masters in Conflict Resolution taught me anything, it’s that aggression and hostility will only cause a cycle of violence when answered with hostility and aggression
Some of history’s worst conflicts exemplify that small rule.
Have fun!
@ Editor
While I appreciate the platform you have created to help people engage in a “healthy” debate….I am sorry but i think your tremendous efforts will come to a naught when people do not want to engage in debate…
I am an Indian Kashmir. I hail to that state..I was born and brought up there so were my parent’s and parents parents… I am tired of people telling me what i should feel… If i resent the army in Kashmir…I resent Pakistan sponsored terrorists even more….They are the ones who brought the army into my state….
I am sorry to say this..but i am perfectly happy being an Indian and revel in my identity…It may come as a surprise to you my friend…but azaadi or joining Pakistan is not a big dream of mine
I do not understand when did i not answer your comments..I accepted the Gujrat violence for what it was…I do not agree to the numbers presented by Hurriyat simply because a) they are highly inflated b) a terrorist should be killed irrespective of the religion he/she belongs to!
I did not understand ur comment regarding the Kashmiri Pandits…But it is a fact that they are living like refugees in India because they were forced to leave Kashmir…if that is not ethnic cleansing i dont know what is!
And unless you have lived in our Kashmir please dont tell me what is happening there…
I hope and live for the day when we will drive all the terrorists out of J&K and peace and prosperity will return!
please do read this article about the 2002 elections http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/10/10/stories/2002101005311100.htm
Do notice the phrase “22 member multi-national team”.
Also the 60% voter turnout in the recent elections is higher than even the national average! Surely 60% turnout cannot be possible by holding people hostage!
The thread is being used entirely to present hardened views and trying to win points in a debate that has been made acrimonious and pointless even though the subject was very important.
Both India and Pakistan are going to face rough times with such attitudes.
Indians and Pakistanis should together seriously examine the financing and sponsorting mechanisms of fundamentalist forces operating in their territories..
Let us revert to RAW and ISI after investigating the role of MI6 , CIA , MOSSAD and Saudis in the region , their support to narcotic trade and their support to fundamentalst forces.
They will enslave us once again while we are busy destroying each other.
@ Ghoda/Indian Kashmiri (fake)
your fake arguments will not change anything
you can write as long comments as your Indian map !
but here are the sour truth of the day :
In India
450 millions of Dalits
220 millions of Indians have nothing to eat & waer
280 millions of Indian kids to be given in adoption abroad
320 millions Minorities at the peril of exterminations
on Kashmir check http://www.kashmir.org/humanright.htm
ethnic cleansing ” ” ” .pucl.org/from-archive/religion-Communal/meerut.htm
Manipur http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/09/29/these-fellows-must-be-eliminated.
Nandigram http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/01/14/india-urgent-
enquiry needed-nandigram violence.
India refuse UN http://www.hre.org/en/news/2008/04/06/india-un
rights counsil -should-tackle-impunity.
Sikh 84-95 http://www.upr-info.org/img/pdt/ens-india-sa-2008-ensaaf-upr sikh mission.pdt
others.
@Kalsoom,
I don’t know which one of comments of Ghoda you had
claimed to have removed ?
here is the fake Indian Kashmiri reveal as his intentions
and inciting murders of those who do not agree with him
his comment of today 19 @ 5.19 pm
4th paragraph ” I do not agree ………….
b) a terrorist should be killed…………….
its worrisome to have these delirius follies and sotties.
@ Ghoda, thanks for repeating
” just a matter of time ” with my historical phrases !!
could you please repeat it time to time, as it will
save me a lot of energy, works as a reminder to
all.
@ Ghoda, thanks for repeating
” just a matter of time ” with my historical phrases !!
could you please repeat it time to time, as it will
save me a lot of energy, works as a reminder to
all.
@ Kashmir elections according to fake Indian Kashmi rire
is the most vulgar farce,
@ Indian Band
Indian Minister of Minorities Mr. A K Antony
has resigned for daal mein Kaala case on
Karkare’s assassination following scandelous
right wing minorities killings and barbarism,
@ Amnesty International report of Kashmir elections
as well as all black laws introduced for useing the
same against minorities non-hundus particularly,
India is fastly moving towards a great minority’s
holocaust.
rafay,
Your offhand completely irrelevant remarks surprise me. We were talking about problems in Kashmir and you shifted to casteism, hunger, child traffic and all.
Anyway
450 millions of Dalits……………they are one third of the population, and we take care of them by providing them up to 40 percent reservation in all government jobs and heavy subsidies in educational fees, to dilute the years of discrimination, thats called accepting the problem and remedying it.
220 millions of Indians have nothing to eat & water……………………..yeah, and your crass simplicity doesnt help.
280 millions of Indian kids to be given in adoption abroad………………………….Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound, given that total children under six in India are 150 million.
320 millions Minorities at the peril of exterminations……………………………………Again insane remark, I dont even wish to comment.
———————————————————-
The links you mentioned lead to nowhere, only one that did open was manipur one. Where the given human rights team research and results were based on 18 cases. Not quite reliable, but still…some quotes from that report…..
‘Since 1990, at least 1,300 militants and nearly 1,000 members of the security forces have also been killed’
‘Manipuris, by and large, do not wish for the security forces to be withdrawn. They simply want human rights violations by troops to end, and for the perpetrators to be punished.’
A few stray cases apart, Manipuris need army presence, as does Kashmir till things become normal, which shall be soon.
its funny you talking of human rights against army, where in Karachi the local people burn alive the robbers on street in broad day light and police looks on.
——————————————————-
Doosre ki kameez pe dhabbe nazar ate hai, lekin,
khud ki kali gireban se parda karte ho?
Watan jhulas raha hai nafrat ki aag me apka, lekin
khuda pe nahi, nafrat pe sajda karte ho?
just one small correction..i am a her….
and I am not a fake Indian kashmiri…just because my opinion doesnt concur with yours does not make me unreal!
@ arctic,
what you are perhaps not use to is that Pakistan, after
being systematically bullied for 3 decades, now tries
to defend against mighty, classical colonial,
pointing-at-all-the-times-to-Pakistan policy !!
you are fogetting easily that Pakistan needs a
partner to resolve these “half-a-century-long,
grave revendications towards India,
Pakistan can not alone achieve any solution, war can
be disuasive to calm down Indian agressivity, but
Pakistan can not live with present Indian attitude !
Iaraeli involvement helping India is aggravating
all the possibilitiies, India is definitly pulling onthe
current delicate situation although seriously
hampered with reversing epilog of Mumbai attacks
Arctic seasons are different than subconti’s.
@ Ghoda,
whether you like or not, disputing on reality is
futile, you can try, but waste of time.
@ Fake Indian Kashmirien,
Term Indian Kashmiri does not exist,madame !
@ Ghoda,
your poetry, against my filbadih, you have no chance
Doosron ki kameez par agar dhaabe laal hon,
khud ke khaki garibanon ka kia kijiay, huzoor,
Insaniat julas chuki he sarzameen-e-hind par,
MahaBharata ko apnay, yon sajdah mat kijiay
Rafay Kashmiri
@Fake Indian Kashmirien,
you don’t have to use fake names to convince
others of your difference of opinion, which I am
oblige to face ! madame.
Hi Kalsoom,
I was reading with interest your posts about your parentage-you truly have a unique perspective since your mother is Bangladeshi, father is Pakistani (and cousin was in the Mukhti Bahini) Pl know that, now, you have a few Indian brothers too!!
Needless to say, I have interest in foreign policy and a bit in history. Since Ind-Pak relations again came to forefront, I had been doing some research on the history of enmity and the wars, and came across several enlightening links and posts. You may be interested in seeing a few of these links related to the Bangladesh war in 1971(though I am sure with your research, you already know a lot more on this):
(Simple layman narration on the conflict, possibly by an immigrant Bangladeshi)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98838nONxvg&feature=related
(seems an Indian documentary)
Students in Pak cities reaction to the 1971 events-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDdodVyleM0&feature=related
AND the MOST REVEALING: http://www.docstrangelove.com/2008/12/16/the-last-days-of-united-pakistan/
This is a blog by a Mash who “unravels the false reality created by the military regime using media in the last days of united Pakistan to keep the general Pakistanis in the dark” in his words. Mash is a native Bangladeshi who seems to have done extensive work to chronicle the country’s past/evolution. He has actually posted DAWN’s front page for those 10-12 days in Dec ’71 and its striking to see how far away from reality some of the messages were (giving an impression as if Pak was crushing the opponents-India and Bangladeshis when it was getting routed). It did not even talk of unconditional surrender of 90K Pakistani troops and Gen Niazi’s giving up!!
I see lot of parallels of the above newspaper chronicle with the mindset in a few vitriolic posts I see here. With a comic sense of how things don’t change, it displays how misinformation and constant feeling of victimization can get some people to believe in exaggerations while never seeing the harsh reality in own side of the aisle!
Thanks Pravar
, any wonder now about why I did my masters in Conflict Resolution? I am Pakistani but my heritage really explains why I studied what I did in college and graduate school and why I chose the career path I am on now. It also may help explain my approach to IR-related topics in general!
Thx for the links, I will check it out!
@ its smoky here, something is burning !!
@rafay:
It seems you are more interested in countering my poetry than the posts.
How can you brush off my comment, when I have taken excruciating pains by going through all the links you have forwarded and answered them reasonably, is beyond me.
I thought earlier, you read and write without processing any information in brain. Now I believe you just write, dont even read.
————————————————-
apke nagmo me thodi qafia bandi ho jati to baat thi
filhaal to ek sanjeeda mazmoon lag raha hai
angaroon pe baith ke dhuen ko rote ho,
burf lagao, khud kahoge,’thoda sukoon lag raha hai’
(qafia bandi=rhyme, sanjeeda=serious, mazmoon=essay,dhoona=smoke)
@ Ghoda,
only, if you can understnd poetry !
its in it ? lol
radhif apka kisi qafiay se, milta hi nehin
shair apka, gidaar ki bhi dumm nehin he
Bastian jalti hein, to dhoan ata he nazar,
hon angaray nazar mein, to dikhae dega kia
@Ghoda,
all your responses are either boring to death, or
repeat of the same “strategie” lie so many times that
it become “illusioned” truth.
I can have some amusement in smashing your so called
poetry with a sort of ” glossary” type of nursery class chart, e.g
you don’t say ” thoda sukoon lag raha he ” this is
Bazari and wrong lingo, just give slap to your teacher,
and correct it like this
“Kuch sukoon mil raha he”
@rafay
thanks for correction, appreciate it. We are not taught urdu in school, some of the words are integral part of hindi though. So I learned a little from reading on my own, love the language, great contribution from islam world.
———————————————————
angaroon pe ap baithe ho, apka dard tha, apka sukoon hai

dimag me nafrat, akhon me dhoona, tashreef mazloom hai
nazme humari bazari hi sahi, ye jaroor sikha gayi hai,
ki apki taleem me, thappad khaye ustadon ka huzoom hai
[mazloom=injured, nazme=poetry, taleem=education.huzoom=crowd]
btw, its dhuan not dhoona in second line.
@ good Lord,
angaron pe to ap jalatay hein insane ko zindah,murdah,
dhuaan nafrat ka dimagh se phir kharij az-tashreef hota he
nazm apki bazaari sehi, apko kia khaak sikha gaei hogi,
partay hongay jutaiy bohat, apkay haton, apkay ustad pe
correction !
mazloom = victim, nazme = genre of urdu poetry popuplar,
hujoom = crowd (not z)
@ Pravar,
your bavardage on 71 Indian terrorism, in the region
can provoke also what happend on the western front
specially chamb jorian sector and Kashmir, the humiliation
Indian army received at the hands of Pak Army wagah
border, tens of buses loaded with Indian soldiers thugs
in civil came to loot Lahore, one Pak soldier killed plenty of
drunk Indian soldiers, 20 times bigger enemy was routed out
and humiliated, your Army used Sikh batalions in front lines
to be slaughtered and erased, you clever Brahman India.
@ghoda
@pravar
Ignore ‘Rafay Kashmiri’, he is lost his mind. If u want to discuss on the situation talk to other pakistanis who are well informed and cultured.
@Sutch,
why are you worried, sutch ? let them learn something
atleast, these pendoos are not use to other languages,
they have never left India in their life time.
Why don’t you take some Urdu lessons from me ?
I have observed their capacity, what about you ?
how about this !
Ham hein mushtaq, aur woh bezaar,
ya ilahi, yeh majerah kia hey ?
Ham bhi muhn mein zuban rakhtay hein
kaash pucho keh muude’a kia hey
Another one from Rais Rampouri :
Tumhey ham jantey pehchantey hein,
kabhi ham se adakaari ne karna !
@sutch,
its alright, am enjoying here
————————————————–
@rafay
kisne socha tha ki humari nazme islah hongi apki qalam se
lagta hai bantware me jo alag hue the, ab yaari ho gayi hai
waise kharij az-tashreef se kya hum ye samajen ustaad,
ki apki jali hui tashreef bahari to thi hi, ab bazari ho gayi hai?
ustadoon me ustaad to filhaal ap hi ho humari urdu ke ,
milenge kabhi, to joote sath honge, apse is kadar dildari ho gayi hai
[islah=correction, kharij=outside, I guess]
@ Sutch,
try some burnol on ghoda’s burns
@Ghoda,
Socha ne tha, hamse hogi manzoom islah apki,
Batwara kam agaya, batey howay hamsayon ka
kharij-az-tashreef hogaei apki aik karishma,
jal gaei jo tashreef woh faqat dhuaan hogaei
Zar’ra nawazi he apki, is nachees ko jana ustaad,
waise size meray joton ka bialees howa karta he
Kharij = evacuate or exit
@Ghoda,
Dosti ho agar to hamsaighi ka haq rakho,
amn-o-ashti, sukoon-o-chaine se jina sikho
Dhonse, dhamki, jhagra, fassad nehin kam ka,
Nash’a taqat ka, ander apnay dabana sikho
Barbadi, tabahi, sirf jang se hoti he paidah,
Chanab-o-sutlej-o-Raavi ki tarikh se sabaq sekho
@rafay’s tashreef
ae rakh hui ruswa tashreef, jihad ched de tere sar taaj pe warna
makhboot ki tashreef pe joote jamane wale gali gali ghooma karte hain
@rafay
bad hajmi ho jaye to shikayat na karna rafay, ye to shuruat hai
humari karjdar tashreef tumhari, khatm danv to kabj pe laga ke rakha hai
waise tumhare joote se nahi khidmat karenge tumhari, aise khwab na dekho
ghode ki nalen jab jamengi tashreef pe, to bialees ke joote phool maloom honge
[ruswa=infamous, makhboot=insane]
@rafay
yeah, this is better than rhyming ones, no need to think of rhyming words,more comic and coarse at the same time.
Anyway, will try to be more refined next time.
whats this sort of shayari called? What are the other genres? send some links of famous ones if you dont mind.
@ give up ghoda, its not your cup of tea !
apni tashreef ab raakh mein dhontey kiun ho,
gali gali jootay pehnay, yun ghooma ne karo
Bad hazmi to sambhel jati he, pechish magar, nehin,
Huzoor apki Tashreef to arsa howa, shamshaan hogei
Hon agar jutay mayessar apko, apkay dess mein,
sambhal Rakhiay unhe, bialees chalein gay phirbhi !
@rafay: its on its way to become one
———————————————-
ye oopar wale sher to lagta hai apki tashreef farma gayi hai
inhe pakhane me hi rakho, kyon gali gali numaish karte ho?
bad hajmi, kabj ko sambhalo nahi, dawa daru se kam lo
fir waqt-e-rawanagi subah subah muh se nahi hua karegi
darkhaast hai kisi pahoche hue hakim se isabgol le ana
dar hai ki humari pakeezah chappal pe daag nahi chootega
@ Ghoda,
Urdu language was invented/ created in early 17th
century by the muslims of then Brit Bharat, it contains
Turkish, Persian, and arabic and has certainly few
structural sanskrit notions adopted, contrary to hindi
which has no known history, and is basically Udru based
dialect with regional accent and pronunciations.
yaqinan, koi hakim hi karsakta he apka ilaaj,
afsos, apko muhn ki rawangi bhi howa karti he
ham ne zikr kia tha, apko lahaq pechis ka,
magar ap zikr lebaithay apni badhazmi ka
kisi ved ko rujo’o kijiay to behtar hoga,
shartt yeh he, behtar wo bialsees se ho
[...] this core policy dilemma by framing the problem of extremism and militancy in regional terms. The events which unfolded in Mumbai last month have no doubt thrown their plans to resolve the long-s…. The U.S. must now adopt an even more sensitive approach towards India-Pakistan relations, but [...]
I am a Pakistani who currently study in Switzerland. It is shame that, we as a nation cannot stay firm against terrorism and such dastardly acts. It is a shame that, a well acknowledged criminal like Dawood is allowed to live a lavish life in Pakistan soil. We are trying to create darkness by simply closing eyes. Our denials are automatic, without substance. In Europe, the reputation of India is as a country of intellectuals and secular, but sadly Pakistan is a scared, terrorist country. I try to correct them, but they say, they reply: Look at India’s progress and history and Pakistan’s curent state! As youths, we have a moral responsibility to take Pakistan to a better state, not as the one who protect criminals and terrorists.
@Shoaib,
why should we Pakistanis be considered as puppets ?
and do as others want !! there are thousands of Dawoods
in India, your shame might be some complexes !
The reputation of India in Europe is according to your
fixed sources and Indian Associations. The one who says
Pakistan is terrorist country, himself contributes some how
to the false and fake propaganda, what is India’s history ?
without Pakistan’s territorial culture ? you seems to be quite
ignorant about that. The world, particularly the zionists must
leave the world alone it can do much better,
who is not protecting criminals and terrorist ?
CIA, Mossad, Mi6, Raw, are they not ?
I don’t think you are Pakistani ?
This is a interesting blog .
Nice to see a good discussion, minus the Rafay Kashmiri, who’s ways of thinking, talking and writing is like a educated illiterate.
Terrorism is being universal, all states need to understand to root it out of our society or else no one will be living to njoy what god has created in a free state of mind.
Hi! I’m an Indian. I read about this blog in Times Of India and thought it would be worthwhile to look up. And actually it is. From what I’ve seen it doesn’t seem that Pakistanis are against Indians personally.
But the fact of the matter is that Pak army and ISI have to start respecting boundaries. It is high time they changed their anti India stance.
Would you believe if I said that a strong and vibrant Pakistan is good for India. We don’t want Pakistan or it’s people being held ransom by Pak army, which at the moment it is. Sherry Rehman, just a few months ago was after Benazir’s death was on Indian TV and she squarely blamed Pak army for it. Now today when she’s part of Pak govt Pak army has become holier than thou? What utter double standard?
Please believe that it was (some)Pakistanis who were responsible for Mumbai attacks.
It’s high time we both realized that we have wipe out terrorism in all it’s forms. Pakistan cannot progress till this matter is dealt with once and for all.
@life,
are you Indian female ? I do other things as well !
which can be very interesting for you ? madame !
@sush,
well India is basically responsible for all conflicts,
Pak Army or ISI is wrongly blamed by Indians for their
own sins. Indian Hegemony will never be tolerated,
have this idea, once and for all, Pakistan’s legitimicy
is beyond question when it comes to defending its
territories and sovereignty.
Sush, I think you are serious, tell me why India is exporting
terrorism into
Nepal
Tibet
Sikkim,
Bhutan,
Bangladesh,
Kashmir
Sri-Lanka
Pakistan
Afghanistan
I think its great time that India be taught a good lesson.
India is part and parcel of Int. Consortium of Terrorism.
@sush,
Indian Mumbai’s so called ” 9/11 ” drama failed
what a fiasco, Col Prohat,, you remember him ?
the three police investigatoprs, killed on the spot
from their back (liquidted ), you remember them ?
12 Indians made Indian troups of 50.000 donkeys for
60 hours, Indians were very efficient activist militants
from Daccen, and then Indian fabricated Qassab, Kassab,
kasav, (sounds very Tamil Nado), and Parnab Mukkerji
lost completely his Bangla !!!!
Looks like our Educated Illiterate friend (@Rafay Kashmiri) is far worse than an uneducated Illiterate, he is showing savage minded ideas which are only generated from a CRIMINAL and MILITANT mind not from a SANE Minded person.
I am a World Citizen and but i don’t think u have a future in astrology either.
Its a Free suggestion please at least once in while do use ur mind sanely and listen what others have to say and what’s others think and why Pakistan is being seen as a root cause of all atrocities around the globe and not only in India repeatedly. Its not to say that all of Pakistan is that way but there are few who are out to prove Pakistan wrong and then try to give an reply rather than cut paste ur words from all the blogs.
I believe in routing out terrorism from roots of all societies. All states need to understand to root it out of our society or else no one will be living to njoy what god has created in a free state of mind.
@life,
and I am citizen of the universe. Not very impressed by
your backward and savage anti-Pakistan sentiments,
are best example of your state of mind degenerated ,
rendering blindness to the reason and debility to appriciate
the reality, India is a terrorist state, you have well read my
comments, and your irritation is childish. Your level of
education ends up in ONLY anti-Pakistan sotties. If you
call it living to enjoy what your evil has created in a mindset
like yours. what a waste your ” life “
@Life,
once upon a time there was that bloody Samjhotta
express and Col.Prohat, you killed and burned alive
70 Pakistanis muslims, tell me where should I stuff
your astrology and and famous ayurvedic root cause
of atrocities inflicted by Indian Hinduvta Brahmanic
Nazi dogs on the entire humanity in India
450 millions of DALITS
380 millions who have nothing to eat and wear !!
120 millions kids to be adopted by EU, USA !
320 millions of minorities at the peril of extermination
112.000 Kashmiri muslims exterminated by 700.000
Indian Nazi soldiers.
Go and get a life !!
Dear whosoever,
Like all countries, India and Pakistan both have problems. Rafay is either poor read or is victim of wrong perhaps misguided haphazard literature. I will not comment on that further.
We need to understand that religion is just a political tool given in wrong hands to be exploited. Unemployment, illiteracy, poverty are some of the real problems we should tackle. So what if the culture belongs to one particular part of the subcontinent. What difference does it make in your normal life that in one part of your neighbouring country someone is cooking and enjoying food which your country invented…how does it make difference that language i speak is actually came from pakistan(or anywhere in the world)
Those people who died in mumbai, marriot, kasmir, west pakistan or anywhere in the world are victims they are not hindu and muslim. Terrorism has no religion and no faith. People who exploit always have some vested interest to propogate it. Being an Indian i am not supporting India at all neither i am denying possiblities of causing trouble in Pakistan or anywhere. But as a normal citizen i think we should lock our faith when we come out of our homes.
Government not in India or Pakistan but in every possible democracy have taken advantage of minority, religion castes.
I have read comments on muslim being killed in Gujarat or Kashmir, what i couldnt understand is are you trying to justify mumbai attacks in the wake of abovementioned killings?
Intentionally or unintentionally everyone in some where down the line is justifying terrorism, whether it is so called “islamic” terrorism or “hindutva” terrorist agenda.
what ever i found in this debate as very naive and irrelevant to the topic. Bullets and Bombs dont have discriminatory reaction.
For me the word “politics” consists of two words- “poly” means many and ticks means blood sucking animals. I would request the editor of this blog to put reasonable restriction on the democracy of the comments. And i think in a theory of democracy reasonable restriction is always justified.
Young minds can get a wrong impression of what real situation is.
The article is well researched, good, impartial and informative. Thank You Kalsoom.
@rajat,
you tried hard to hide your bias against Pakistan,
apart from your first remark on myself, I would’nt even
bother to judge your capabilities, the rest of your comment
is speaking line by line,
first two paragraph are purely hypocrisy, you are definitely a
secular Hindu, hiding behind socio-culturel,
in the third para of 2 1/2 lines, you opened up
and brought out a settled mindset of accusing
muslims/pakistani for avenging Gujarat & Kashmir’s
genocide, nobody had even mentionned it once, but you
confirmed yourself that the revenge is religiouis, then
again you quickly jumped on your own appriciation of
events just confirming that religions are violent, but since
India is known to be “secular”, it maintains you on a very,
so called, neutral grounds,
in the second last paragraph you tried to play BJP ending up
condemning Politics as a show piece and naturally slipping
in a request asking the helpless editor to apply the Indian
democratic secularist rules , i.e. according to your definition
democracy, marxism should be obliged to protect
” young minds” from getting unIndian impression of the
situation of Genocides taking place all over India,
and then yours faithully ! sincerely !
sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa , the same old sargam.
rajat ji, my half a dozen comments touched you very
deeeeeeply. I feel pity for you !!
write something about semi-classical music, ghazals
etc.
Indeed i am a secular hindu..(Rafay sounded as if he is abusing me with that term) I dont know if i am hiding anywhere. anyways How old are you Rafay?.. please answer that query. For me you seem to be a 17 18 year old kid who has read one or two books and made opinions….
please forward me link of any information regarding “genocide happening in India” well i want to know more about it…paste it here lets see ugly Indian faces…
this blog sounds like another battleground where readers take on each other on personal basis…the title of the article was “Mumbai Attacks:ramification….”
Rafay sahab with your arguments i dont see we are discussing that.
well i can also talk about semi-classicals ghazals sufi music rock and jazz at the same time better than anyone but the point is that this isn’t the place. I have realized that..i hope u too do that…
by the way any feedback on Pakistans latest move on cracking down on terrorist camps ? i think it should be appreciated…
@ rajat,
all I can say, viewing your response of a 76 years old
retired writer-propagandist, as they say
KHISSIANI BILLI KHAMBAH NOCHE
everyone is hidden behind the lines, you misjudged
largely, as you have no idea of what you have said !
not a single word of your comments could be weighed
sincerely.
@ rajat,
you came out with your real face, please watch
11 videos: Pakistan respeonse to the Mumbai dossier
(in English) watch first the following and if you have the
courage to come back and talk !!
http://www.brasstacks.pk
what was Col Prohit doing ? with who’s collaboration ?
where is he now ? what is his link with MODI ?
Why police officer Karkare and two other investigators
were executed in public with police pistol bores
what were they doing around Mumbai Taj or Nariman
Sabbath House.
you have major 35 terrorist organistions in India active
with military training given by Israel and Raw.
SAMJHOTTA EXPRESS
Karkare and two other police investigators had discovered
THE GENOCIDES OF DALITS, MINORITIES AND MUSLIMS.
perpetrated by RSS, Bajrang Dal, BJP, shiv senna,
don’t you know them ??
kindly put these links around your neck and roam in
the streets of Mumbai asking for the facts from your own
authorities not the showbis trashes.
@ Rajat,
well, a propos, Mumbai attacks : ramifications
here is it , just check on the following website
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/01/19 video-
pakistan-response-to-the-mumbai-dossier.
69 pages of mumbai dossier from Indian Govt. with
a wanted list of 9 people.
There are 11 videos of a total disasterous Indian fiasco
on Mumbai, never in the history India was such a
failure and pretentious.
watch them, if you are interested in discussing,
give me a buzz . if not thts ok too.
…there is no difference in people like Rafay and Ex-Col. Purohit but irony of the time is that they are greatest abuse to each other.
@ sameer,
I like your reaction, you registered the pick very quickly,
tell me about Col.Prohit ? have you been watching
Pakalert every detail of Prohit ? and the dossier ?
its a shame, is’nt it ?
for an Indian to be nationwide known as Gandhi killer,
muslim killer, Samjhota express arsoner killing 70 muslims,
organising communal riots killing Christians, Bhuddists,
Dalits (regularly as religious ritual). Your remarks about
myself is of no importance, but essential was that you
admitted Col PROHIT, he exist !!! he is venerated by
Indian terrorists, given ticket of Lok Sabha, he is accepted
inside Hinduvta’s natak and Indian takeover by nazi
Hindu zionist. Pakistan has no lessons to receive from
Hindu non-secular terrorist India.
@Rafay
I am not sure do u actually read and understand what people say or is it only in one direction that u think of or do u still think openly .
I do have a life man, looks like my friend you got hurt, but accept to disagree and you try not to accept, Its ok for everyone its up to the other side to take it or leave it (from your response i think you don’t seem interested in knowing the problems at ur end), nobody has time to actually try to propagate our agenda.
All states need to understand to root out TERRORISM out of our society.
As everyone says the point u want to make totally differs from the title.
Best of luck for your life. If you do have one ( not sure u have one, It looks like its a lost case with u
)
@ life,
agree or disagree, no problem, but i can not but
defend my position like you would do, I am not
forcing anybody to agree with me, when you defend
something you got to do it, i won’t let you decide the
rules of the game, mate, my defence will be on my
conditions, if I accept your rules, then why should I
defend in the first place, you attacked me personally,
consequently I reposted and provoked you severly,
then you starting teaching all of us international morals,
civic this and that,
who cares about what others might say on you, ! you
sounded like very sensitive rather
paranoiac regular member of an NGO type, I might be
wrong !! sorry !
I did’nt let you go ! so why this protest ? look at your
comments of 3rd and 6th jan, you think I would have
let you go free just like this !.
@rafakashmiri
your repartees lead me to conclusively confirm that you are squabbling just for the sake of letting off the waste of your confused mind; that your mind is probably undergoing a serious psychotic trauma; that you definately need to shut your trap for once and listen carefully to what others are saying here too.
@ Raj, or Rajat
how can my ” witty and powerful repartees ” could be
simple squabbling for you ? giving stupid reasons, every
flipping Indian is a born charlatan ” physcologist ”
suggesting others to listen to your sotties !! naturally
I am listening others first and then answering,
you lost ninkumpoop !! (compliment).
@rafay
First off, you don’t have to be a psychologist (yeah, physcologist for you) to decipher someone as raving mad and messed up as you. You know why…because you’re not educated enough to comprehend what is being written by people, or don’t have the balls to accept facts stated by people who don’t share your thinking.
If you think abusing or calling people names can rejuvinate your sagging ego, go ahead and have a ball. You are keeping us entertained. But youre at the same time making yourself up to be a bufoon … the kind who clasps his hands in glee after typing profanities into the text box!! Maybe this is the ONLY way you can realistically show your superiority and nationalism. We understand that, and our sympathies are with you in this hour of despair for the likes of you.
Its not about hatred or ‘anti-muslim blogs’ or disinformation either. Its about having a discussion in a civilized manner. There is nothing as an ‘anti-muslim blog’! But maybe you dont understand this because you’re probably living in an Islamic Republic and dont know what being secular means, because it certainly doesnt show in your words.
Your expressions like ‘chuck the shoes’ or ” grammar coted bias and pretentious textes” do not make any sense to me, so please excuse my education.
You will feel much more happier if you try unwinding..